USN Should I go Naval Aircrewman or a Submariner?

[Uncle Fester]

What I find interesting is that the OP hasn't been seen for 13 days and there's 5 pages of discussion.

This your first time on the Interwebz?

Anyway, we did see a few Academy and ROTC cones try what @HAL Pilot refers to - DOR on their first day of school. At least in the cases I was personally aware of, they weren't drafted, but weren't as cunning as they believed themselves to be, and thought they could volunteer for aviation, DOR immediately, and skate on their commitment altogether. Letting USNA/ROTC kids go home without a bill was very very briefly a force-shaping policy...like single-digits numbers of students...but CNATRA wanted to avoid RIFing students who were meeting stan and wanted to be there.

I don't know current policy, but 7-8 years ago, they just got redesed to SWO.

I agree that I never saw the point of drafting someone into Air (or Nuke). Aptitude doesn't count for much if there's no desire. Yeah, yeah, bloom where you're planted, etc, but we've all known plenty of dudes who really wanted to fly but wound up absolutely miserable in the airplane. Expecting someone to power through that and achieve anyway when they don't want to be there defies psychology.

I suppose the logic goes, if we're looking at a draft, we don't have enough qualified, willing bodies for the billets anyway. So we pick someone qualified and unwilling. If we don't, that billet would go unfilled. Therefore, either the draftee winds up loving flying, or he quits, in which case we've lost nothing. Not saying I agree with it, just that I follow the logic. I just think the Navy's probably better off leaving a billet unfilled, and, say, throwing it out there to j.g.s from other communities who want to lat-transfer, rather than gambling on finding a prodigy amongst the unwilling.

I have no data to back this up, but I suspect that for every genuine draftee cone, there are three or four who use "Well, I was drafted into aviation, I never wanted to be there in the first place" as an story for their friends for their DOR/attrition.

 

[azguy]

Aptitude doesn't count for much if there's no desire. Yeah, yeah, bloom where you're planted, etc, but we've all known plenty of dudes who really wanted to fly but wound up absolutely miserable in the airplane. Expecting someone to power through that and achieve anyway when they don't want to be there defies psychology.

Good point, and I obviously agree- if someone isn't comfortable or qualified to fly, DOR is the right choice. That's different than DORing because they are butthurt they selected aviation.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Good point, and I obviously agree- if someone isn't comfortable or qualified to fly, DOR is the right choice. That's different than DORing because they are butthurt they selected aviation.

I don't agree. The entire point of having a DOR policy is not forcing someone to stay in high-risk training who doesn't want to be there - because it's high risk. Having an unwilling, distracted, uncomfortable, whatever, student in the course is a danger to the student, fellow students, instructors, and so on.

 

[azguy]

I don't agree. The entire point of having a DOR policy is not forcing someone to stay in high-risk training who doesn't want to be there - because it's high risk. Having an unwilling, distracted, uncomfortable, whatever, student in the course is a danger to the student, fellow students, instructors, and so on.

What I don't get about @HAL Pilot and your argument is that we've had these SNA and SNFO drafts for many years and there aren't a rash of DORs that I've ever heard of, or that have been presented here, even anecdotally. You guys are the outliers. Apparently there are plenty of boot ensigns who are assigned their 2nd or 3rd choice in service selection and go on to be good aviators and enjoy the community.

To me, it's the same as the guy who dreamed of being "Maverick" getting MH-60s or P-8s. Or the SWO that wanted that shiny new DDG in San Diego getting a minesweeper in Bahrain. It sucks! But we still have to expect that those officers will lean forward and do their best in the job they've been assigned. That's why they are called 'orders.'

 

[Uncle Fester]

What I don't get about @HAL Pilot and your argument is that we've had these SNA and SNFO drafts for many years and there aren't a rash of DORs that I've ever heard of, or that have been presented here, even anecdotally. You guys are the outliers. Apparently there are plenty of boot ensigns who are assigned their 2nd or 3rd choice in service selection and go on to be good aviators and enjoy the community.

To me, it's the same as the guy who dreamed of being "Maverick" getting MH-60s or P-8s. Or the SWO that wanted that shiny new DDG in San Diego getting a minesweeper in Bahrain. It sucks! But we still have to expect that those officers will lean forward and do their best in the job they've been assigned. That's why they are called 'orders.'

I've never personally met anyone who was no-shit drafted into aviation. Maybe got FO when they wanted Pilot, but that's it. Not saying they don't exist - I'm sure they do - just that I never met any. I was an API instructor for three years and I saw kids DOR for every idiot reason under the sun, but never once did one of them say, 'I never wanted to be here in the first place and this is my fastest way to something else.' So it's not at all common or routine. If anything, it was the opposite: kids who really wanted to be pilots but it became clear that they didn't have the aptitude or skills. I could really really want to be an NBA forward, but it ain't gonna happen.

In any case, there is a difference between someone wanking about not getting the particular orders they wanted, and forcing someone to stay in high-risk initial training when they don't want to be there. If a kid says aviation isn't his choice and doesn't want to be there, because he's freaked out and uncomfortable being at the controls, would you just tell him to suck it up and execute his orders? Would you draft kids to go to dive school or jump school if scuba diving or parachuting scared them shitless?

You're saying there's a difference between quitting because they didn't get what they wanted, and quitting because they're not suitable for the job. Maybe so, but so what? If they don't want to be there, they don't, and it's dumb and pointless and potentially dangerous to send them in the first place.

 

[azguy]

You're saying there's a difference between quitting because they didn't get what they wanted, and quitting because they're not suitable for the job. Maybe so, but so what? If they don't want to be there, they don't, and it's dumb and pointless and potentially dangerous to send them in the first place.

This is the whole point. Whether or not you believe it, or have met them personally, there are many winged pilots and NFOs- today- who put something ahead of that as a Mid. BTW, there are many SWOs and nukes, who put something ahead of that when they service selected. It wasn't dumb or pointless or dangerous, as you assert, to send them to their current community. NAs, NFOs, SWOs, nukes, or another community needed that JO to fill a seat in their ranks.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

This your first time on the Interwebz?

Anyway, we did see a few Academy and ROTC cones try what @HAL Pilot refers to - DOR on their first day of school. At least in the cases I was personally aware of, they weren't drafted, but weren't as cunning as they believed themselves to be, and thought they could volunteer for aviation, DOR immediately, and skate on their commitment altogether. Letting USNA/ROTC kids go home without a bill was very very briefly a force-shaping policy...like single-digits numbers of students...but CNATRA wanted to avoid RIFing students who were meeting stan and wanted to be there.

I don't know current policy, but 7-8 years ago, they just got redesed to SWO.

I agree that I never saw the point of drafting someone into Air (or Nuke). Aptitude doesn't count for much if there's no desire. Yeah, yeah, bloom where you're planted, etc, but we've all known plenty of dudes who really wanted to fly but wound up absolutely miserable in the airplane. Expecting someone to power through that and achieve anyway when they don't want to be there defies psychology.

I suppose the logic goes, if we're looking at a draft, we don't have enough qualified, willing bodies for the billets anyway. So we pick someone qualified and unwilling. If we don't, that billet would go unfilled. Therefore, either the draftee winds up loving flying, or he quits, in which case we've lost nothing. Not saying I agree with it, just that I follow the logic. I just think the Navy's probably better off leaving a billet unfilled, and, say, throwing it out there to j.g.s from other communities who want to lat-transfer, rather than gambling on finding a prodigy amongst the unwilling.

I have no data to back this up, but I suspect that for every genuine draftee cone, there are three or four who use "Well, I was drafted into aviation, I never wanted to be there in the first place" as an story for their friends for their DOR/attrition.

We had ensigns coming through our NRD in 2010/11/12 that were on their way out because they failed flight school, most were USNA/NROTC and were being put IRR, often they tried to redesignate but could not.

 

[Uncle Fester]

This is the whole point. Whether or not you believe it, or have met them personally, there are many winged pilots and NFOs- today- who put something ahead of that as a Mid. BTW, there are many SWOs and nukes, who put something ahead of that when they service selected. It wasn't dumb or pointless or dangerous, as you assert, to send them to their current community. NAs, NFOs, SWOs, nukes, or another community needed that JO to fill a seat in their ranks.

Flight training isn't an academic environment, and students don't have several layers of supervision between them and a genuine fuck-up while they learn the ropes. Neither does a student's willingness to work and study make the difference. Cones freeze up, overreact, forget procedures, etc etc., even with the best will and motivation in the world. When a brand-new ensign kills the OOD the first time he conns the ship, or a fatal mishap occurs in Nuke school, then I'll concede the point.

DOR policies exist for a reason, and schoolhouses which conduct high-risk training get into trouble when instructors take it upon themselves to decide whether a student is genuinely in trouble or otherwise over their head, and just being a slack-ass no-load quitter. I will point to several drownings and near-drownings at Navy and Marine swim schools in recent years as examples. The TRACOM has also learned this the hard way, which is why new IPs aren't assigned to Fam/Contact flights. How do you tell the difference between a student who just doesn't want to be a pilot because it's not what they wanted, and one who's genuinely shit-scared of the airplane?

Is your point just that officers should be professional enough to try their hardest even if it wasn't their first choice? Of course I don't disagree with that. But how people "should be" isn't the point.

 

[HAL Pilot]

No one should be told they have a decade long commitment without their voluntarily accepting it.

 

[Gatordev]

This is the whole point. Whether or not you believe it, or have met them personally, there are many winged pilots and NFOs- today- who put something ahead of that as a Mid.

Where are these people? I haven't met one in 19 years. As UF said, there's guys who may have wanted pilot over NFO, but got NFO, but aviation is COMPLETELY voluntary. Like Fester, I've seen guys who thought they could beat the system and put aviation, get selected and then try and bail, but they're fairly easy to spot (and STUCON does that very well).

There can also be guys who get winged and then don't hack it (or legitimately can't) at the FRS, and currently, it's not unheard of to let them go since they're coming up on their initial commitment and if they redesignated, they'd be behind their peers in other communities.

But maybe you have found the cache of "drafted" aviators that no one knows about. I'll admit my only experience is as an IP at two different FRSssess and as a TRACOM IP.

BTW, there are many SWOs and nukes, who put something ahead of that when they service selected. It wasn't dumb or pointless or dangerous, as you assert, to send them to their current community. NAs, NFOs, SWOs, nukes, or another community needed that JO to fill a seat in their ranks.

Whether the training is Surface Rescue Swimmer School, Flight School, or any high-risk training in between, the Navy policy is the same. It's high-risk training and is very specifically delineated as such and one can DOR at any time.