The H-60R has the dipping sonar. HSM.
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Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.
- Thread starter Wareal
- Start date
What would prevent naval aviation from allowing HSC and HSM pilots to transfer freely back and forth between both types of units when their PRD comes up? How much retraining or check rides would need to happen to go from the Sierra to the Romeo or vice versa?
A shared perspective of having sat in both seats (-S and -R) could bridge the culture gap and create more common ground, as opposed to an us-vs-them mentality.
A shared perspective of having sat in both seats (-S and -R) could bridge the culture gap and create more common ground, as opposed to an us-vs-them mentality.
HSM (MH-60R):
HSC (MH-60S):
I think the CVN guys are better suited to answer the deck space question.
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Test community does this. From a pilot standpoint the aircraft are identical. Slightly different autorotational characteristics with Romeo cg vs Sierra EWS but that's nerd stuff.
However, to be tactically proficient would require more training time. With HSC sticking to PMC/SAR it would be eminently more doable, but likely shot down due to community rice-bowling as others have pointed out.
Real talk: Make the H-60 a single-pilot aircraft, put an NFO in a front seat as per RN/RAN/et al in their maritime helos, and legacy VAQ. Massive cost-savings as we cut production requirements in half and scale back the pilot pipeline, while training the NFOs with existing FRS architecture.
If you ran an F-14 into an S-3 you could hammer out the damage. My composite aileron cost $220k and had to be replaced after a crunch. It will be even worse for an F-35. Not a great reason, but it’s a reason.
Any idea on when this is supposed to take hold? The HSC CO screen list this year didn’t seem to reflect a potential decrease in squadron numbers, so I’d hate for a dude to be on that list and then never get a squadron to command.
I've been saying for years that I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually in some form or fashion, HSC and HSM will become a composite squadron.
Being proficient really seems to be the long pole in the tent. HS could get away with it because the the F had fewer sensors which begat "less" sensor management which begat (relatively) less T&R (I know it's not that simple, but for the sake of brevity). Being able to make a HSM pilot a L3 in HSM stuff and then also proficient in CSAR just doesn't seem realistic in today's fiscal environment. And then there's the crewmen, who are already WAY less proficient on ASW than they should be, in large part because they aren't forced to do it enough.
Everyone says a composite squadron won't happen because of rice bowls, but I don't fully buy that. When you hear community leaders chatting (and just chatting, no planning) in their office about how FVL may require a rethinking of how the helo community may be organized, to include composites and even squadron locations, some of those rice bowls may be ignored by higher ech staffs. Especially if some of the people talking about it come from what is viewed as the more "established" community (ie, HSM).
Are there hurdles? Yup. All I'm saying is with FVL, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility.
Again, I think FVL makes that discussion, potentially, more likely. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
Being proficient really seems to be the long pole in the tent. HS could get away with it because the the F had fewer sensors which begat "less" sensor management which begat (relatively) less T&R (I know it's not that simple, but for the sake of brevity). Being able to make a HSM pilot a L3 in HSM stuff and then also proficient in CSAR just doesn't seem realistic in today's fiscal environment. And then there's the crewmen, who are already WAY less proficient on ASW than they should be, in large part because they aren't forced to do it enough.
Everyone says a composite squadron won't happen because of rice bowls, but I don't fully buy that. When you hear community leaders chatting (and just chatting, no planning) in their office about how FVL may require a rethinking of how the helo community may be organized, to include composites and even squadron locations, some of those rice bowls may be ignored by higher ech staffs. Especially if some of the people talking about it come from what is viewed as the more "established" community (ie, HSM).
Are there hurdles? Yup. All I'm saying is with FVL, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility.
Again, I think FVL makes that discussion, potentially, more likely. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
Starting on the west coast in 2021.
I argue there’s no need for a composite squadron because the 3 things the S has that the R doesn’t—M-197, APR-39, and left door/CSW—don’t make much difference in the war we think we’ll fight. If you want the cabin space and weight/power margin for effective vertrep, leave it to a HC squadron/det. As far as numbers, remember we have several squadrons’ worth of Rs in pres between SD and Mypt.
A little cross-pollination occurs, and I think a HSM HAC/L3 could go be an overwater L3 in HSC with (the wrong) fuel system differences training today. HSM nerds wouldn’t know where to start with overland. HC, on the other hand, could focus on the CSAR niche (but important) mission during their training while the primary mission is pretty intuitive.
I say put the aircraft in the missions/communities they’re better suited for, and let the aircrews choose their path with community transfers.
A little cross-pollination occurs, and I think a HSM HAC/L3 could go be an overwater L3 in HSC with (the wrong) fuel system differences training today. HSM nerds wouldn’t know where to start with overland. HC, on the other hand, could focus on the CSAR niche (but important) mission during their training while the primary mission is pretty intuitive.
I say put the aircraft in the missions/communities they’re better suited for, and let the aircrews choose their path with community transfers.
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For clarity, what I'm guessing will happen may be different than what should happen, at least currently. I think FVL could potentially change things to a more efficient model, if allowed.
I just....sigh. Having grown up under the almost-last cadre of HS DHs and COs, I'm only surprised it took this long.
-HS and HC's marriage watered down whatever credibility HS/HCS had in previous years. The wardrooms were too big, JOs barely getting enough hours/experience, people just not caring, etc
-The Sierra is a bad fit for almost all the missions we give it, save for SAR/LOG. There's better options for any other mission. N98 should wear this with shame.
-The conflicts of the last 20 years have effectively nullified any "from the sea/first mover" advantage HSc had, and the future high-end fight only makes it worse
-Playing hot-potato with the Firescout, then dumping it on JOs who already aren't flying actual helicopters enough.
-Navy leadership's disdain for putting a helo det on land or cultivating expertise (although I don't know what -85 is up to these days)
All the while, HSM ate our lunch. I know a lot of HSC bubbas and bub-ettes, hope they don't get screwed in this process.
-HS and HC's marriage watered down whatever credibility HS/HCS had in previous years. The wardrooms were too big, JOs barely getting enough hours/experience, people just not caring, etc
-The Sierra is a bad fit for almost all the missions we give it, save for SAR/LOG. There's better options for any other mission. N98 should wear this with shame.
-The conflicts of the last 20 years have effectively nullified any "from the sea/first mover" advantage HSc had, and the future high-end fight only makes it worse
-Playing hot-potato with the Firescout, then dumping it on JOs who already aren't flying actual helicopters enough.
-Navy leadership's disdain for putting a helo det on land or cultivating expertise (although I don't know what -85 is up to these days)
All the while, HSM ate our lunch. I know a lot of HSC bubbas and bub-ettes, hope they don't get screwed in this process.
Feel free not to answer, since this is a public forum, but a few questions:
I know these have been challenges for LHA/D dets, but (I think) amphib flight ops allow for more flexibility than air wings will
- What's the standard manning for a 3-bird HSC det?
- How will a 3-bird CVN det man 10+ hours of PG, 24 hours of Alert 30, and 2 SDOs 6 days/week?
- How will this det accomplish any ULT during deployment?
I know these have been challenges for LHA/D dets, but (I think) amphib flight ops allow for more flexibility than air wings will
I don't recall exact numbers but I think it's something like 8 or so pilots: OIC, 3 LT HACs, and a mess of 2Ps.
Nothing different then what is done on an LHD. LHD SAR DETs used to cover those requirements with 2 a/c and fewer pilots. If I recall they flew two crews a day and then had an alert line. Someone who wasn't flying got to be the guy who answered the phone when tower called.
ULT was worked in as able when air plan and SAR a/c availability allowed it. You could launch a section to go do some tacform or gun shoots but one of them still had the dot as SAR and had to stay so close to Mom. Also, there was no requirement for the SARDet to provide CSAR so that training requirement went away (PR provided by the ACE via TRAP).
Someone else said that AWF still has a CSAR requirement, would be curious to see how that changes as the this plan matures. Will there still be a need for organic CSAR via a couple of 60Ss or will the CVW instead rely on theater assets like everyone else?
Just wanted to thank you guys for reviving this thread. I'm coming up on selection in a few weeks so this has been on my mind a lot lately.
Does anyone know where I could find this new aviation plan/vision document? (The one that talks about reducing HSC CVN by 50%). I've heard instructors at the squadron talk about too, but I haven't been able to find a hard copy.
Does anyone know where I could find this new aviation plan/vision document? (The one that talks about reducing HSC CVN by 50%). I've heard instructors at the squadron talk about too, but I haven't been able to find a hard copy.
GO HSM.