Ski Jump

[USMCFLYR]

Marine Harrier Pilots (or other Gator Navy folks) -

I was watching a show tonight on the evolution of the Aircraft Carrier.
It featured a segment on the LHA/LHDs too.
I noticed that ALL other nations that operate the Harrier (Spain, Italy, Great Britian, and India) used the ski jump as a means of launching thier Harriers.
Even the Chinese and Russians were using ski jumps on their conventional carriers launching their SU-33 - citing the maintenance and cost issues of the catapult system.

What is the current thought process in our Gator Navy for sticking with the traditional Helo-V/STOL carrier and not utilizing a ski jump? I'm pretty sure the reasons I've heard in the past for using a jump included an increase in the safety margin and the increased payloads available on takeoff.

USMCFLYR

 

[vick]

Easy, none of the others do mixed (FW & RW) deck ops to the extent that we do. We don't have amphibs so that we can lauch AV-8s, we have amphibs so that we can launch the whole composite squadron. Chopper guys don't like the jump, gets in the way of deck runs and cuts down on usable spots.

 

[HeyJoe]

What is the current thought process in our Gator Navy for sticking with the traditional Helo-V/STOL carrier and not utilizing a ski jump? I'm pretty sure the reasons I've heard in the past for using a jump included an increase in the safety margin and the increased payloads available on takeoff.

USMCFLYR

It was looked at 30 years ago (or so) and a skijump built at Pax River to evaluate benefits. Even F/A-18 Hornets got to try it.

Pax River skijump testing back in the day

To solve deck flexibility problem, a retractable skijump would allow best of both worlds, but it comes down to money in the end. The "Gator Navy" doesn't have its own resources, but due to influence of Marine Corps, it finally got its own Warfare Sponsor on OPNAV (N85). However, the Surface Navy still controls the purse strings through N86 and their priority has been pointy nosed ships and AEGIS so Amphibs have been relegated to Mod-repeats except for LPD-17 that had a Marine Colonel in N85 driving the train on internal design for hosting Marines.

 

[jtmedli]

Marine Harrier Pilots (or other Gator Navy folks) -

I was watching a show tonight on the evolution of the Aircraft Carrier.
It featured a segment on the LHA/LHDs too.
I noticed that ALL other nations that operate the Harrier (Spain, Italy, Great Britian, and India) used the ski jump as a means of launching thier Harriers.
Even the Chinese and Russians were using ski jumps on their conventional carriers launching their SU-33 - citing the maintenance and cost issues of the catapult system.

What is the current thought process in our Gator Navy for sticking with the traditional Helo-V/STOL carrier and not utilizing a ski jump? I'm pretty sure the reasons I've heard in the past for using a jump included an increase in the safety margin and the increased payloads available on takeoff.

USMCFLYR

I saw that same show. Looks like a fun way to launch. What really surprised me was the fact that they could get an SU-33 up using that method. I thought that was pretty cool. I'd like to see an F15 go off the front of an AMPHIB!!!!

 

[HeyJoe]

What really surprised me was the fact that they could get an SU-33 up using that method. I thought that was pretty cool. I'd like to see an F15 go off the front of an AMPHIB!!!!

When they tried the Ski Jump at Pax, they also used opportunity to try the F/A-18 Hornet and F-14 Tomcat. They are still accelerating as they depart the ramp and now quite flying yet so they leave in a parabolic arc awaiting enough lifties and maybe some ground effect in extremis. So if it worked for the Tomcat, it would certainly work for a F-15, but no chance of recovery with its spindly landing gear (not sure if its tailhook could handle the stress either).

 

[slug]

I was watching a show tonight on the evolution of the Aircraft Carrier.
It featured a segment on the LHA/LHDs too.USMCFLYR

What channel/show? Sounds interesting.

 

[USMCFLYR]

When they tried the Ski Jump at Pax, they also used opportunity to try the F/A-18 Hornet and F-14 Tomcat. They are still accelerating as they depart the ramp and now quite flying yet so they leave in a parabolic arc awaiting enough lifties and maybe some ground effect in extremis. So if it worked for the Tomcat, it would certainly work for a F-15, but no chance of recovery with its spindly landing gear (not sure if its tailhook could handle the stress either).

Although I have seen tailhooks on different AF aircraft, they are certainly not stressed for a carrier arrestment. An F-15E pilot told me that they were strictly for emergency field arrestments (this was back in '92-93 timeframe).
More recently in May of '08 when I attended the tinker AFB airshow, I was asked to make an field arrestment to help certify their arresting gear. It seems that they had a very hard time getting support as it seemed the AF considered it a little risky.

As for the original question - I have heard that cinducting mixed ops were one of the primary reasons why we don't utilize the ski jump. I never deployed on a 'Gator Navy' ship and have no experience with helo-V/STOL operations, but it seems that the other navies of the world have similar operating restrictions - meaning operating helos and their Harriers off the same deck.
I have heard from Harrier and Helo pilots alike that they don't seem to work very well together - even as far as the Helos flying mostly night ops and the Harriers not being able to get their night currency requirements.

I'd like to heard more from those that have experience working in that environment, especially the difficulties of mixed operations.

USMCFLYR

 

[USMCFLYR]

What channel/show? Sounds interesting.

Military Channel.
The show was called 'Weapons Races'
This show happen to focus on the race for the aircraft carrier.

USMCFLYR

 

[Pugs]

When they tried the Ski Jump at Pax, they also used opportunity to try the F/A-18 Hornet and F-14 Tomcat. They are still accelerating as they depart the ramp and now quite flying yet so they leave in a parabolic arc awaiting enough lifties and maybe some ground effect in extremis. .

Wonder if they factored in some sort of wind over the deck per what would be normal ops? Hard to simulate at the field but a worthwhile data point.

 

[Flash]

I noticed that ALL other nations that operate the Harrier (Spain, Italy, Great Britian, and India) used the ski jump as a means of launching thier Harriers.

All of the other countries use their carriers primarily as non-amphibious warfare platforms. Some have used them sometimes as airborne assault platforms, especially the Royal Navy, but they were primarily designed as ASW/strike/escort platforms.

Even the Chinese and Russians were using ski jumps on their conventional carriers launching their SU-33 - citing the maintenance and cost issues of the catapult system.

The penalty they are taking with the ski jump when used with CTOL airplanes however is that less load/fuel is carried by the aircraft, not a good thing. For amateurs it may be fine but for people who really want to get good use out of a conventional carrier, not so much. And the Chinese don't have an operational carrier or carrier aircraft, yet.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

So I guess doing "deck runs" for helos taking off is beneficial. I've seen videos of 46's doing this, but to 53's and mv-22's do this as well or are they too big? If so would it make sense to use ramps after 46's have all been phased out?

 

[USMCFLYR]

All of the other countries use their carriers primarily as non-amphibious warfare platforms. Some have used them sometimes as airborne assault platforms, especially the Royal Navy, but they were primarily designed as ASW/strike/escort platforms.



The penalty they are taking with the ski jump when used with CTOL airplanes however is that less load/fuel is carried by the aircraft, not a good thing. For amateurs it may be fine but for people who really want to get good use out of a conventional carrier, not so much. And the Chinese don't have an operational carrier or carrier aircraft, yet.

True - operational is the key word. The show was highlighting the carrier purcahsed rom the Russians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Chinese_aircraft_carrier

USMCFLYR

 

[phrogdriver]

So I guess doing "deck runs" for helos taking off is beneficial. I've seen videos of 46's doing this, but to 53's and mv-22's do this as well or are they too big? If so would it make sense to use ramps after 46's have all been phased out?

A helicopter "deck run" is not a rolling takeoff, but a low departure straight down the deck, vice sliding left off of it. This way the aircraft stays in ground effect until it gets translational lift.

53s rarely are power limited enough to need a deck run, but I suppose they could, though I've never seen it. They can land next to the island, so they have the requisite clearance.

V-22s will sometimes do a short takeoff (rolling) off the front from just in front of the island. The useful load can be increased by doing that.

Putting in a ski jump is going to take away at least one helicopter spot, and probably a few parking spaces as well. For mixed helo/Harrier ops, is isn't worth it, unless you could somehow make it retract. The cost and complexity probably isn't worth it.

 

[Lawman]

Another question...

Are Amphibs consistantly underway and therefor "making wind" during Air Ops? Given they have the whole well deck side of their operations I was curious as to the Air Boss being able to consitantly count on wind across the deck.

 

[JTS11]

A helicopter "deck run" is not a rolling takeoff, but a low departure straight down the deck, vice sliding left off of it. This way the aircraft stays in ground effect until it gets translational lift.

53s rarely are power limited enough to need a deck run, but I suppose they could, though I've never seen it. They can land next to the island, so they have the requisite clearance.

V-22s will sometimes do a short takeoff (rolling) off the front from just in front of the island. The useful load can be increased by doing that.

Putting in a ski jump is going to take away at least one helicopter spot, and probably a few parking spaces as well. For mixed helo/Harrier ops, is isn't worth it, unless you could somehow make it retract. The cost and complexity probably isn't worth it.

I've done one from spot 9 for "training".

We can definitely be power limited coming off of the boat, especially when the S-4 loads every mf'ers seabag, along with other stuff, into the back on an offload. Especially when it's a hot/humid day and they don't have a clue how much all that shit weighs.