Dual received should only be logged when your cfi logs dual given. TT can only be PIC,SIC, and/or Dual received/given. From my understanding mil time for airlines (or any other civ job) is logged in a different document and it would be acceptable to give civ and mil time in seperate documents.
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Solo versus PIC
- Thread starter C420sailor
- Start date
Dual received should only be logged when your cfi logs dual given. TT can only be PIC,SIC, and/or Dual received/given. From my understanding mil time for airlines (or any other civ job) is logged in a different document and it would be acceptable to give civ and mil time in seperate documents.
I don't plan on going airlines (long way off though!). I just like having all of my stuff in one place. Thanks for the help!
Yeah ... mebbe not your 'plan' ... but EVERYONE in aviation ... 'thinks' about 'going airlines' ...
IF the airlines were hiring hand over fist today ... like they have at cyclical times in the last 40+ years ... 80% of the pilots (and some of the NFO's) would be getting O-U-T and pressing the airlines.....
Believe it.
I would recommend keeping your military and civilian time seperate. Military training does not really fit into civillian logging rules. In the FAA world, in order to log time in an aircraft, you must be either rated to fly it or receiving instruction from a CFI. Since almost no Navy IPs have a CFI, you cant log your time in primary unless you have a private license with multiengine and complex endorsements.
There are numerous other differences. Civilians log engine start to shutdown. Military is takeoff roll to landing roll (helicopters is a little more complicated). Military splits out First-pilot time and co pilot time.
There are numerous other differences. Civilians log engine start to shutdown. Military is takeoff roll to landing roll (helicopters is a little more complicated). Military splits out First-pilot time and co pilot time.
Yes you are correct in a single or multi civilian, <12,500lbs. If there is one guy under the hood and another acting as safety pilot then both are legal to log PIC, it gets a little screwy when a SIC is required, and its a big loop hole since the safety pilot is logging PIC time while not manipulating the controls, and may not even be responsible for the a/c (not the flight, just the ac, of course he's responsible for the flight, if he's the safety pilot).
As far as the civi commercial, just wait till you get your wings, and get the free deal. I only caution based on experience from friends who have done this, just because you flew 25 hours in a Cessna in IFS doesn't mean you can still do it at a proficient standard 2 years later. Know your limits regardless of the piece of paper saying you can do something. I wouldn't want my first flight in an unfamiliar airplane be in hard IMC down to mins, even though the FAA has branded me with superstar status.
True, just to keep your logbooks well organized and the times easily accessed, if nothing else ... but when/if you fill out an application for the airlines, they will usually group the flight time sections into flight time 'types' ... i.e., PIC, night, instrument, total, multi-engine, etc ... but NOT civilian or military as a general rule.
So you will end up grouping your flight time totals into categories (again, not civilian/military) .... in fact, many Navy guys used to 'fat-finger' their totals -- which equated to adding a .1 or .2 into their total times to make them competitive w/ AF and/or civilian logbooks. During the hiring 'glory days', several airlines 'got it' and added a 'fudge factor' to Navy flight times as they knew the drill as well.
None of the airlines in my experience (both as an interviewee AND an interviewer) ever looked at logbooks w/ any degree of thoroughness or specificity --- I don't think ONE interviewer even touched my logbooks during any interview/hire process -- the airlines can 'tell' whether or not you have the 'right stuff' and the time you claim during the interview -- they're not new at this ....
Plus ... if you lie, it will catch up to you someday, somewhere, and you'll be fired -- and possibly put your FAA tickets in jeopardy, as well ...
Plus ... if you lie, it will catch up to you someday, somewhere, and you'll be fired -- and possibly put your FAA tickets in jeopardy, as well ...
Like this guy (former S-3 pilot, as well as being a former Meridian type):
Fedex Flight 705
CVR and write-up
I think the falsified logbooks were probably the least of his problems when all was said and done though
I assume the airlines take into account the fact that we log time from takeoff to landing? If not, I could see why guys would be tempted to pad their hours.
Wait, was he a pilot or a FE? The article/wiki isn't clear.
Both ... he was a pilot AND an FE (former Naval Aviator AND an FAA rated Flight Engineer). FE is the starting/entry level position on the 'older' cockpit configured 3-man crews; i.e., those prior to the 2-man jet cockpits.
UNLESS the airline's cockpits are staffed w/ 'professional' FE's -- some used to do that -- I guess something akin to a P-3 crew -- and then CoPilot would be the 'new' entry level flying position.
*edit* ... This was a very, very BIG deal at the time. Calloway was a true sonofabitch and if anyone EVER deserved the death penalty for air piracy/attempted murder -- he did. The rest of the crew were truly heroes -- but none of them ever flew again due to the extent of their injuries. The three crew members -- CAPT Dave Sanders, F/O James Tucker (also a former Naval Aviator), and S/O Andy Peterson received ALPA's Gold Medal for heroism in 1994 -- for their indomitable spirit and airmanship. It is the highest award a civilian pilot can receive.
Safety pilot - you can log this as either PIC (if you are the PIC as defined by FAR part 1) or as SIC (if the pilot flying under the hood is the PIC as defined by FAR part 1).
If the plane requires a SIC, then whoever is PIC logs PIC and whoever is SIC logs SIC, unless the SIC is flying and is logging PIC under FAR part 61 sole manipulator clause. Then both log PIC..
A safety pilot becomes a required crewmember if the the pilot flying is under a hood. That is why it becomes legal to log SIC even in a single engine GA aircraft.
Total time - there is nothing that says total time has to have a corresponding PIC, SIC, Dual Received or Dual Given entry. Total Time is not even defined by the FARs. Many airlines use TT = PIC + SIC + Dual Received as a quick check of TT. They don't expect it to be exactly equal, but if it is not close, they might question / check your logbooks more.
As far as combining military and civilian time in a single logbook, I recommend it. But to do so you need to keep track of the block out and block in times for your military flight. This way, there is no need to wonder if you should apply a conversion factor or not (some airlines allow it and some don't. Further, they may have different factors. This way you know the exact civilian hours.
Remember there is a remarks section,. Use it to explain why there is a TT entry without a PIC, SIC or Dual Received entry. Annotate it's a military flight with the block out/block in times. Etc.
IT's your logbook. Except for a few entries required by the FAA you can maintain it and log flights however you want.
If the plane requires a SIC, then whoever is PIC logs PIC and whoever is SIC logs SIC, unless the SIC is flying and is logging PIC under FAR part 61 sole manipulator clause. Then both log PIC..
A safety pilot becomes a required crewmember if the the pilot flying is under a hood. That is why it becomes legal to log SIC even in a single engine GA aircraft.
Total time - there is nothing that says total time has to have a corresponding PIC, SIC, Dual Received or Dual Given entry. Total Time is not even defined by the FARs. Many airlines use TT = PIC + SIC + Dual Received as a quick check of TT. They don't expect it to be exactly equal, but if it is not close, they might question / check your logbooks more.
As far as combining military and civilian time in a single logbook, I recommend it. But to do so you need to keep track of the block out and block in times for your military flight. This way, there is no need to wonder if you should apply a conversion factor or not (some airlines allow it and some don't. Further, they may have different factors. This way you know the exact civilian hours.
Remember there is a remarks section,. Use it to explain why there is a TT entry without a PIC, SIC or Dual Received entry. Annotate it's a military flight with the block out/block in times. Etc.
IT's your logbook. Except for a few entries required by the FAA you can maintain it and log flights however you want.
Does it really matter the difference between block out to block in or takeoff to landing? Once you are over ATP mins or airline hiring mins, it doesn't matter. It adds up to, what, another 200 or 300 hours over the course of a career?
I know that I was easily over ATP mins just during the course of my minimum duty commitment from pilot training, and I'll easily cover the current highest airline hiring mins in my time after that...and this is as a fighter dude who is only able to log a fraction of what the heavy guys fly.
Unless you absolutely *need* the extra time to get a rating or meet minimums, there is absolutely no reason for the time in your logbook to be any different than the time in your official military flight records. It will only complicate things at the interview.
I know that I was easily over ATP mins just during the course of my minimum duty commitment from pilot training, and I'll easily cover the current highest airline hiring mins in my time after that...and this is as a fighter dude who is only able to log a fraction of what the heavy guys fly.
Unless you absolutely *need* the extra time to get a rating or meet minimums, there is absolutely no reason for the time in your logbook to be any different than the time in your official military flight records. It will only complicate things at the interview.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Well, there are some of us, who if using .mil time alone STILL don't qualify for ATP mins after our commitment is up. I MIGHT break 1200 hours by the time my original commitment is up, and I never got out of the cockpit. So for guys like me, the extra couple hundred hours helps.
You betcha' ... and like I said; don't LIE. But ANY extra time 'helps' ... the minimums are the minimums -- and just that and only that. They are used to screen out less qualified people -- they represent a bottom threshold you must cross for serious consideration. You want to do 'better' than the minimums, just like in everything else throughout life.
Think about it this way: if you have one vacant spot yet sitting before you are two equally qualified applicants -- their tickets, education, background, flight time history ... all basically even ... but one has 200-300 more total flight hours than the other ... with all things being 'equal' and absent a 'hunch' on the part of any of the interviewers -- who do you think will get the new-hire nod ???
If you meet the minimums -- in most cases, ALL THE AIRLINES THINK ABOUT IS YOUR TOTAL TIME AND/OR PIC TIME. They believe more time makes it 'easier' to train the new-hire, get them out the door, onto the line and on the road to becoming a productive employee making beaucoup $$$$$ for the airline and the stockholders.
Whether that is 'right' or 'wrong', it's the way it is and I've personally seen it in action --
The biggest problem with "pre-arming" your military hours in your personal logbook is that different airlines give you different credit for your military time; some do it by adding a specific time per sortie, others multiply total time by a modifier. If you have all ready logged a time in your personal logbook that is different than your official military flight record, then you are IN EFFECT not being truthful by adding hours to your ALL READY modified hours.
Plus, you will have to answer up for the differences between your official military flight record and your personal logbook. I personally know of someone who was dismissed from his SWA interview because his military time in his personal logbook differed from what was in his AFORMS official transcript.
My non-expert advice is to keep the hours the same, that way there is a lot less work to make your military hours conform to how different carriers want it.
Plus, you will have to answer up for the differences between your official military flight record and your personal logbook. I personally know of someone who was dismissed from his SWA interview because his military time in his personal logbook differed from what was in his AFORMS official transcript.
My non-expert advice is to keep the hours the same, that way there is a lot less work to make your military hours conform to how different carriers want it.