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Special Forces Aviation
- Thread starter anselmosna
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And this discussion just goes to show the *UNHEALTHY* amount of emphasis the Navy puts towards ASW when operating helicopters - I would say it is out of line with what the joint commanders really need.
Most of these missions tend to be secondary in nature for HS, HSL, and HC - so not a lot of training resources get involved.
A key point as well - at the risk of being flamed. Most of the Special Operators have an inherent distrust of Navy and Marine Corp helicopter units - and this goes back to the Navy's embarrasing performance at Desert One during the Iranian Hostage Rescue. The Navy really blew it and the folks involved on the Navy side exhibited either shear incompetence or cowardice or both.
That whole incident spawned the Pave Low program for USAF and TF 160 on the Army side.
The shame of it all was the legacy of HC-7, HAL-3, and HAL-4 was completely lost in the Zumwalt Navy of the 70's - we stopped having a warrior ethos - it's been a tough road back - and I think Navy rotary wing aviation is slowly making a comeback. We need to see Navy grey H-60's involved in combat operations as a matter of doctrine - and the Marione Corp needs to get in line with technology - they are doing it but not at the pace the Army and AF are w/r/t helos.
Most of these missions tend to be secondary in nature for HS, HSL, and HC - so not a lot of training resources get involved.
A key point as well - at the risk of being flamed. Most of the Special Operators have an inherent distrust of Navy and Marine Corp helicopter units - and this goes back to the Navy's embarrasing performance at Desert One during the Iranian Hostage Rescue. The Navy really blew it and the folks involved on the Navy side exhibited either shear incompetence or cowardice or both.
That whole incident spawned the Pave Low program for USAF and TF 160 on the Army side.
The shame of it all was the legacy of HC-7, HAL-3, and HAL-4 was completely lost in the Zumwalt Navy of the 70's - we stopped having a warrior ethos - it's been a tough road back - and I think Navy rotary wing aviation is slowly making a comeback. We need to see Navy grey H-60's involved in combat operations as a matter of doctrine - and the Marione Corp needs to get in line with technology - they are doing it but not at the pace the Army and AF are w/r/t helos.
I agree with most of the above, but I think the "mistrust of USN and USMC" by SpecOps is a bit overblown, at least on the Marine side. On my last deployment, in which we did a lot of OEF support, the word was that Marine lift, esp by 53Es was getting to be the preferred method, over the USAF 53J. Apparently, the Corps was a bit more "can do" in its attitude.
The Navy really does need to get into more SpecWar for its R/W assets. The chances of needing to support SEALs are much greater than the chances of needing to sink a submarine.
The Navy really does need to get into more SpecWar for its R/W assets. The chances of needing to support SEALs are much greater than the chances of needing to sink a submarine.
As far as the Army works it's also who you belong to. The 160th Bubbad belong to SOCOM not the regular army. So there is never a pissing contest between commands. I think the Air Farce has run into thos problem with some of their SAR assets. I'm pretty sure that the only SOCOM r/w assets belong to the Air Force and Army.
On a side not the Easyriders bubbas (HSL 37 ) also helped out with the Brue Willis movie "Tears of the Sun". My unit did all the interior filming in our H-60's. All the exterior stuff was HSL 37. We also had some what the same deal filing JP3.
On a side not the Easyriders bubbas (HSL 37 ) also helped out with the Brue Willis movie "Tears of the Sun". My unit did all the interior filming in our H-60's. All the exterior stuff was HSL 37. We also had some what the same deal filing JP3.
Bobby:
I take it you're in San Dog then. That's interesting. I didn't really notice a change of birds, since so much of TOTS is w/ the Kualau mountain range in the back ground, but that makes sense, w/ the need for cutaways and all.
I also have to echo the idea that the snake-eaters don't mistrust the USN. It's just that the USN may not always have the right asset available at the time. Before OIF, there was non-stop MIO/VBSS/HVBSS, all with HH-60s and -60Fs, and -60Bs providing sniper cover. I know one thing that the operators appreciate is the pilots being able to adapt and flex w/ what's needed. Something the Air Force isn't renowned for. That said, there's some stuff that's been going on down in South America lately, and they have to go w/ what's available.
I take it you're in San Dog then. That's interesting. I didn't really notice a change of birds, since so much of TOTS is w/ the Kualau mountain range in the back ground, but that makes sense, w/ the need for cutaways and all.
I also have to echo the idea that the snake-eaters don't mistrust the USN. It's just that the USN may not always have the right asset available at the time. Before OIF, there was non-stop MIO/VBSS/HVBSS, all with HH-60s and -60Fs, and -60Bs providing sniper cover. I know one thing that the operators appreciate is the pilots being able to adapt and flex w/ what's needed. Something the Air Force isn't renowned for. That said, there's some stuff that's been going on down in South America lately, and they have to go w/ what's available.
Gartordev,
I'm not sure I'm tracking. What is San Dog? When they filmed TOTS o I was deployed in Sarajevo. So I missed out. Here's what the guys from the unit told me. Of course all the external shots are of Eaytrider aircraft. The army guys flew the crews who filmed from the air. They also said that they had some sort of mode put int the back of the aircraft. I think they said somethng to the affect of not having enough room in the Seahawks.
I was at mother Rucker last year when it came out. The only thing I saw was seahawks. But our unit was in the credits right after the Essyriders.
Not sure if that answered your question or just confused you.
I'm not sure I'm tracking. What is San Dog? When they filmed TOTS o I was deployed in Sarajevo. So I missed out. Here's what the guys from the unit told me. Of course all the external shots are of Eaytrider aircraft. The army guys flew the crews who filmed from the air. They also said that they had some sort of mode put int the back of the aircraft. I think they said somethng to the affect of not having enough room in the Seahawks.
I was at mother Rucker last year when it came out. The only thing I saw was seahawks. But our unit was in the credits right after the Essyriders.
Not sure if that answered your question or just confused you.
Oh, I got you. That makes sense. There were a couple of Blackhawks over on the set parked next to ours that would start up and fly at the same time. I wondered what they were for, and they obviously were being used. They also had an A-Star w/ a big old gyro camera to shoot with as well. I can understand not having enough room in the Seahawks...it's pretty tigh even w/ the seats out. I've only really seen the movie 1 1/2 times (it's all I can stand), but never noticed a Blackhawk interior. Guess I'll have to pay better atttention next time.
Oh, San Dog is San Diego. Thought you were in another LAMPS squadron.
Oh, San Dog is San Diego. Thought you were in another LAMPS squadron.
gatordev,
I was told that they put some type of panel in the back of our aircraft to make it look like a Seahawk. I know you guys have no left cargo door and no gunner windows. Don't you guys also have a station for the Sensor Op. to play his funky music? A few of your HAC's flew with our guys when we got our initial DLQ's. I think they liked the fact that we only weighed around 15'500. Not sure if your 60's have 701C's but I think your guys liked the power we had.
Funny that you should mention San Diego. I was looking into the reserve unit that is out of North Island. Anyway it looks as if that will be a wash. I fit the type of experience they are looking for (2600TT,500 NVG) but they army has plans for me . Seems as if I'll be heading back to the sand box. Peace out.
I was told that they put some type of panel in the back of our aircraft to make it look like a Seahawk. I know you guys have no left cargo door and no gunner windows. Don't you guys also have a station for the Sensor Op. to play his funky music? A few of your HAC's flew with our guys when we got our initial DLQ's. I think they liked the fact that we only weighed around 15'500. Not sure if your 60's have 701C's but I think your guys liked the power we had.
Funny that you should mention San Diego. I was looking into the reserve unit that is out of North Island. Anyway it looks as if that will be a wash. I fit the type of experience they are looking for (2600TT,500 NVG) but they army has plans for me . Seems as if I'll be heading back to the sand box. Peace out.
Gartordev,
I was just curious as to the make up of a Navy 60 sqaudron. Who performs most of the IP and test flight duties? Plus what type of hour level would a senior 0-3 or junior 0-4 have? And do you stay in certain communities. For examle ,
will you stay in the LAMPS community or go b/t that and SAR units?
I was just curious as to the make up of a Navy 60 sqaudron. Who performs most of the IP and test flight duties? Plus what type of hour level would a senior 0-3 or junior 0-4 have? And do you stay in certain communities. For examle ,
will you stay in the LAMPS community or go b/t that and SAR units?
Bobby:
Indeed we do have the 701Cs, and it's a good thing. Some of our Block 1/Core B birds way almost 17,000 lbs empty. A buddy of mine was out flying one day, and had pre-arranged an "in-flight meeting" w/ another squadron aircraft. He thought he had spotted the other aircraft moving across the mountains, so he rolled in behind them and called "Guns, guns, guns" over the radio. Nobody came back, and he was finding that he was having a hard time catching the other aircraft. He nosed over and went max blast, and the other aircraft began climbing, and was still pulling away from him. It was then that he realized that he had rolled in behind a Blackhawk. Oops.
That's cool that LAMPS guys go out and fly with you. I'd love to have the opportunity just to see how different it is. We have one bird that weighs 15,100 empty, and that's a blast to fly.
As for squadron duties...we don't really have "IPs" per se. The HACs act as "instructors" to the nuggets, giving them their FAM rides and tactics hops. There are some pilots that have higher tactics level quals, so they are required for some sign offs, but otherwise, it's just who ever is qualified. NVG flights to the boat is one caveat though. The first time somebody goes, it reqires an "NVG instructor" which is just a qual that someone can get. As for hours, by the time an O-3 leavs the squadron (end of his first sea tour), he'll have about 1000 hours in model (although that varies depending on the type of cruises he did), and about 1300 total time. Some get more than that. For O-4s, it really depends on what they did for their shore tour. Some guys have 3000 hours when they show up, some only have 1500.
If you follow what the Navy would like for you, then you stay w/in the LAMPS community (or any community, for that matter) all the way through, except when you do your shore tours. Now if your airframe gets phased out or something, obviously that's different, but they like to keep you there. Shore tours are different, as it's pretty open (flight school, SAR, etc).
Indeed we do have the 701Cs, and it's a good thing. Some of our Block 1/Core B birds way almost 17,000 lbs empty. A buddy of mine was out flying one day, and had pre-arranged an "in-flight meeting" w/ another squadron aircraft. He thought he had spotted the other aircraft moving across the mountains, so he rolled in behind them and called "Guns, guns, guns" over the radio. Nobody came back, and he was finding that he was having a hard time catching the other aircraft. He nosed over and went max blast, and the other aircraft began climbing, and was still pulling away from him. It was then that he realized that he had rolled in behind a Blackhawk. Oops.
That's cool that LAMPS guys go out and fly with you. I'd love to have the opportunity just to see how different it is. We have one bird that weighs 15,100 empty, and that's a blast to fly.
As for squadron duties...we don't really have "IPs" per se. The HACs act as "instructors" to the nuggets, giving them their FAM rides and tactics hops. There are some pilots that have higher tactics level quals, so they are required for some sign offs, but otherwise, it's just who ever is qualified. NVG flights to the boat is one caveat though. The first time somebody goes, it reqires an "NVG instructor" which is just a qual that someone can get. As for hours, by the time an O-3 leavs the squadron (end of his first sea tour), he'll have about 1000 hours in model (although that varies depending on the type of cruises he did), and about 1300 total time. Some get more than that. For O-4s, it really depends on what they did for their shore tour. Some guys have 3000 hours when they show up, some only have 1500.
If you follow what the Navy would like for you, then you stay w/in the LAMPS community (or any community, for that matter) all the way through, except when you do your shore tours. Now if your airframe gets phased out or something, obviously that's different, but they like to keep you there. Shore tours are different, as it's pretty open (flight school, SAR, etc).
Gatordev,
Will you ever get the chance to fly the new MH/CH 60 you guys are getting. It is prett much based off our L model,minus the avionics. I heard it is a pretty sweet aircraft. I think our new M model will have the same avionics package plus701D's and we'll be able to up grade our ASE package big time. Fourteen billion from Commanche.
Will you ever get the chance to fly the new MH/CH 60 you guys are getting. It is prett much based off our L model,minus the avionics. I heard it is a pretty sweet aircraft. I think our new M model will have the same avionics package plus701D's and we'll be able to up grade our ASE package big time. Fourteen billion from Commanche.
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