Stand by for high seas, heavy rolls in NSW and JAGC

[xmid]

Does anyone think Gallagher could get a fair and unbiased board at this point? Admiral Green and SECNAV can not just "let this process play out" not without a huge bias. The prospect of him not losing his trident if this moves forward is unfathomable at this point.

 

[CAMike]

I'd wager that the Inspector General is going to begin an investigation of Admiral Green for making derogatory comments about the CIC. Admiral Green has zero excuse for running his mouth about the CIC. Regardless of the outcome, he'll be departing sooner than later.
Trump should put a ships bell in his office and strike it a few times. Admiral Green! You're Fired!

 

[insanebikerboy]

He could no more designate Ivanka as a Naval Aviator (or TOPGUN graduate) than he could designate her as an FAA ATP qualified pilot. If he couldn't arbitrarily designate a warfare qual, how could he arbitrarily reinstate a duly revoked qual?

That was actually my very thought as well, specifically about randomly giving someone wings. If it were to happen, it’d be akin to an honorary doctorate.

From a legal perspective though, I can’t imagine he could do it because of the administrative requirements in place just to earn said qual. An admiral can’t grant a random sailor a warfare qual unless he’s completed the requirements, so how could the President do such a thing?

 

[Dontcallmegump]

I'd wager that the Inspector General is going to begin an investigation of Admiral Green for making derogatory comments about the CIC. Admiral Green has zero excuse for running his mouth about the CIC. Regardless of the outcome, he'll be departing sooner than later.
Trump should put a ships bell in his office and strike it a few times. Admiral Green! You're Fired!

The alleged intention of SECNAV (which he denies) and RADM Green to resign if the review board is ordered seems to constitute mutiny. Although my understanding of Article 2 seems to indicate that only RADM Green is subject to the code, so perhaps that makes the "in concert" part impossible.

"UCMJ Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition.(a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who—(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;"

Obliviously, even if the resignation threat is true AND ordering there not to be a review board is legal, its still a gigantic stretch and I wouldn't doubt there are further regs and precedents that expand upon the requirements of the charge, but food for thought...

 

[squorch2]

When you resign you’re not subject to UCMJ - and civilians aren’t at all.

 

[xmid]

I know it probably doesn't seem like it, but I'm not a Gallagher fan. In fact I think there's a good chance he killed that kid, but he was found not guilty of that at Courts Martial. The system failed whether he's guilty or not. There were unethical and illegal tactics used in an overzealous attempt to nail this guy. It would have been extremely difficult to get a conviction if they had not. Regardless you can't play that way. Civilian detectives and prosecutors can't use illegal means and violate peoples rights, even if they are sure an individual committed a crime. We wouldn't allow that there and we shouldn't allow it here.

Admiral Green was brought in to clean up NSW. Since the start of OEF/OIF NSW has gone further and further off the reservation to eventually become the biker gang of DOD. As a JAG friend at RLSO SW told me, NSW is notoriously impossible to prosecute. They put up so many road blocks and cling to "the brotherhood" to such a degree that normal prosecution is a very difficult task. Because of that, NSW imposed pressure and restrictions on Gallagher and his legal team from day one that would have been unjust for any other defendant. I have no doubt Admiral Green thinks he's guilty of murder. Now he's grasping at any straw he can to make sure that Gallagher is in some way punished. If posing with a dead fighter is so egregious (which it is) as to warrant taking his trident, then it warrants taking the trident of an entire platoon of ST7 that posed for that picture. But he can't do that without completely turning the teams against him. There is no good way forward.

On the other hand, the POTUS has told him to stop. A POTUS elected by the people (no I'm not a cultist). We have an elected civilian leader of the military for a reason. We can't just choose which orders to follow and which to disobey, even if we think that its out of that persons swim lane. We are in new territory on a daily basis with President Trump. But going down the road of military leadership defying the POTUS is a precedent that we don't want to set. To quote President Obama "That's not who we are."

 

[Brett327]

The alleged intention of SECNAV (which he denies) and RADM Green to resign if the review board is ordered seems to constitute mutiny.

Resigning in protest (or threatening to do so) is not mutiny.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Navy secretary says he will not step down over Na…:

 

[Brett327]

One thing I think we can all agree on is the realization that one Sailor’s actions on the other side of the world can have significant and wide ranging impacts at the very highest levels of our military leadership and civilian government. This should temper all of us as we exercise our best judgment and strive for professionalism as the instruments of national policy. That ought to be sobering.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Admiral Green was brought in to clean up NSW. Since the start of OEF/OIF NSW has gone further and further off the reservation to eventually become the biker gang of DOD.

I think that isn't without warrant either. Since day one of OEF/OIF/Whatever the hell we're doing in Libya is called/Our little Syria adventure/etc. NSW and SOCOM as a whole have been at the absolute forefront with more of their time spent in the tall grass than at home. It's why they have had retention problems over the last two or three years. It's also colored the way they look at the world. Those guys have seen some real shit and lived around it for years. We select NSW operators to have a killer edge, train and hone that edge, deploy them for years on end in high intensity conflict, and then expect them to act like saints. Having these dudes under constant exposure to warfare has undoubtedly shifted their moral compasses in the same manner that many of our boys who came back from the trenches of WWI had theirs shifted.

Is it justification for what they may have done? No. But the moral outrage many are experiencing over this doesn't seem justified either. We're in the middle of a war and we expect these guys to be stone cold killers and ruthless on the battlefield. Don't be surprised when they do ruthless, cold blooded things.

 

[HAL Pilot]

When you resign you’re not subject to UCMJ - and civilians aren’t at all.

If the Admiral completely resigns, i.e. no retirement check, then yes he is not subject to the UCMJ. If he retires, he is.

Plus if he retires after not obeying a lawful order, his retirement rank can be reduced to that rank which he last served without misconduct. The Admiral is playing with fire.

 

[JTS11]

If the Admiral completely resigns, i.e. no retirement check, then yes he is not subject to the UCMJ. If he retires, he is.

Plus if he retires after not obeying a lawful order, his retirement rank can be reduced to that rank which he last served without misconduct. The Admiral is playing with fire.

I see AW's resident Art 88 barracks lawyer is back on the warpath...?

 

[insanebikerboy]

I see AW's resident Art 88 barracks lawyer is back on the warpath...?

Having seen something fairly close to this scenario actually play out, HAL Pilot is correct.

 

[xmid]

Has everyone here seen the photo? There are ten other SEALs posing for the picture. Two of them have big smiles on their face. Do you think this was a unique occurrence that only happened this one time? Are any of those SEALs under review to have their trident taken away? I believe one of them is even an officer. NSW has a culture problem.

They are not "casting Gallagher out of the tribe" as the NY times writer said in the video, here's already leaving the tribe in a matter of days. And as I previously said, if anyone thinks that guys that would otherwise stay friends with him will now turn their back to him at the bar, well then they are stupid.

This has nothing to do with justice or holding someone accountable for war crimes, otherwise we would be talking about a very different review board taking place with Gallagher and 10 other SEALs.

 

[xmid]

Is it justification for what they may have done? No. But the moral outrage many are experiencing over this doesn't seem justified either. We're in the middle of a war and we expect these guys to be stone cold killers and ruthless on the battlefield. Don't be surprised when they do ruthless, cold blooded things.

We have pushed the margins with NSW for a long time. Many times from the highest levels. When a DEVGRU CO starts giving out tomahawks to his SEALs and tells them to bring him scalps, then acts shocked when they try to do it... Maybe we should have put that CO on trial. That would have sent a clear message that the teams were getting out of hand and not above the law.

If pushing these guys so hard to be "stone cold killers and ruthless on the battle field" is going to drive them to do things that society finds morally reprehensible, then maybe we should rethink how we train/use NSW.