Stars and Bars

[jmcquate]

I wanted to hear everyone’s thought on the left’s attack on the Confederate battle flag after the shootings in Charleston. Believe it or not, this is the only site on the interwebs where I have had intelligent discussions about serious issues.

My thoughts:

Confederate symbols have always been more about treason than white supremacy or an advocacy of slavery. That changed in the early 20th century with the rise of the “Lost Cause” narrative. The rank and file of the Confederate army were not slave holders, they were too poor. At first they joined because of the “cause” or loyalty to a state, or just because they were bored or shamed (just like the north). As the war dragged on from the promised easy victory by both sides, soldiers fought for what they have always fought for, the man on the right and left of him. That’s something I respect from all of our adversaries from the Revolution to OIF/OEF.

One of the smartest things ever said to me by a professor in graduate school was not to judge the actions of the past through the prism of the present.

With that said, I’m in favor of Confederate flags not being flown on Government property………we won. But the issue gets muddied. Were I live, every other High School and street is named after a Confederate General or Jeff Davis. Hell, the largest Army base (I think) is Ft. Hood

I’ve been studying the Civil War professionally for the first part of my professional life, and as an avid amateur for the second half…………..and I’m still not sure where I come down on bigger issues about this.

I’m a Yankee from Ohio.

 

[nittany03]

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
-U.S. Constitution

"When you strike at a king, you must kill him."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Not every man who wore the gray was an evil man. But that flag was always a symbol of high treason. I would argue fundamentally always at least some racism, as well, even if I know that not all its proponents are racist. I know the North was far from blameless in that regard too, and that Lincoln flat-out stated he valued preserving the union over freeing the slaves. And yes, we as a nation also rose out of armed rebellion. Armed rebellion is not always the wrong choice; so says our own Declaration of Independence. Arguably, the Southern military tradition has become the backbone of this country's warrior class, and arguably Robert E. Lee was personally a gentleman and one of the finest generals ever produced by his native land.

But so was Erwin Rommel, and that doesn't make it OK to fly the flag he fought under, either. And I'll admit that I am biased; not a drop of Southern blood flows through my veins. But one of my forefathers fought for his family's adopted homeland, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, in the 153rd PA Volunteer Infantry at Gettysburg.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The flag was put there in 1961 ostensibly to mark the centennial of the War of Northern Aggression (sarcasm) but it was also conveniently during a time where civil rights were moving in a direction that made the flag more of a statement than an honor for confederate soldiers. It was put there by their legislature, and now that same group will take it down. It's past time, and I'm glad it's happening the right way instead of through the courts.

Now as far as all the other stuff that social justice crusaders will attack... I have no problem with bases or cities or colleges or counties or anything else for that matter named after confederates. In the case of bases, you can still honor a great soldier even if you don't agree with his cause. Sul Ross was a confederate general. He was also governor of Texas, president of Texas A&M, and the namesake of Sul Ross State University. That's just one example, and changing names doesn't change the past.

 

[Pags]

My .02: it needs to come down.

Additional thoughts on the matter:
1. The Civil War was fought because of slavery. Sure, you can say it had to do with states' rights, but the states' rights issue that forced secession was slavery. With this in mind, any Confederate symbol will always have an intrinsic link to slavery.
2. Yes, not all Confederate soldiers had slaves and may have been convinced that they were fighting for states' rights, but, at the end of the day, that states' rights discussion was for slavery. I hate to draw the parallel, but I feel it's apt here. Not all Wehrmacht soldiers were Nazis and they may have felt they were fighting for Germany. But Germany was bad; very bad.
3. The flag may have started off as just a symbol for the soldiers, but since the end of the Civil War it's use has been coopted by other organizations that include the KKK, pro-Jim Crow/segregation southern politicians, and more modern white supremacy groups. It is no longer only a pure heritage symbol.
4. The Lost Cause myth is just that, a myth. It's a dissentious story that was started as a coping mechanism for Confederate Vets and their families. It's no better than the "Stab in the Back" myth.
5. The South Carolina state government represents all South Carolinians. It is beyond "bad form" for them to endorse and use a symbol that is offensive a portion of the state's population.
6. Confederates were still Americans. States should honor their war dead. I think there are better ways to do this such as cemeteries and monuments. I'm less sure about public buildings, streets, etc being named for prominent Confederates. I doubt it reflects the current population's desires.
7. Southern forts are named for Southern Generals because of dated politics.

Bottom line: the Stars and Bars are at best a symbol for rednecks or at worst a symbol of hate. Either way, it shouldn't be associated with a modern US state government.

 

[Flash]

First off, the 'Confederate flag' that most people are familiar with is not the 'Stars and Bars' but a variation of the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia commissioned by General P.G.T. Beauregard after the First Battle of Manassas/Bull Run. He wanted a new flag because he couldn't distinguish the first Confederate national flag, the actual 'Stars and Bars', from the US flags on the battlefield. This was important at the time because the battle flags carried by units into battle was one of the main ways the generals in the field could tell who was who on the battlefield. The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was square in shape but rectangular versions of the flag were used by the Army of Tennessee and as the naval jack (with a lighter blue cross than the battle flags) and those are the 'Confederate flags' we are familiar with today. The Wikipedia page on the flags is actually very good and accurate from what I can tell.

This issue is close to home for me, I went to school in Charleston and my college takes pride in the fact we fired the first shots of the Civil War on January 9th, 1861 at the federal steamer the Star of the West. When I went there many moons ago they had just come up with their own solution to the flag issue, it was commonly flown at football games and used at other school functions until the year I got there. Wanting to still acknowledge our history but not wanting to use the Confederate flag they dug up the flag that had flown over the battery that fired those first shots of the war and we have used a version of that since (and apparently may have even found the original flag a few years ago). It has few other connotations or connections to anything else other than our school unlike the Confederate flag and thus is not a source of controversy.

So while the flag has a varied history from being a battle flag, used as a decoration on some 'good 'ol boys' car to an emblem for hillbilly rock it is forever linked to the opposition of equal rights for blacks in the south. The images of it being flown high by the KKK, whites screaming at civil rights protesters and a party whose sole purpose in life was to preserve segregation are seared in our national consciousness forever.

If people want to honor their ancestors and forbearers who fought for the Confederates then that is fine, but there are countless other symbols that can be used to do so that don't include the Confederate flag and its symbolism. As a classmate of mine put it best, the bedrocks of southern culture are courtesy and kindness and flying that flag is neither to a large portion of citizens in the south.

The 'Stars and Bars', the first national flag of the Confederacy:

The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag:

The second Confederate Navy Jack:

 

[Flash]

...Now as far as all the other stuff that social justice crusaders will attack... I have no problem with bases or cities or colleges or counties or anything else for that matter named after confederates. In the case of bases, you can still honor a great soldier even if you don't agree with his cause. Sul Ross was a confederate general. He was also governor of Texas, president of Texas A&M, and the namesake of Sul Ross State University. That's just one example, and changing names doesn't change the past.

Some names and symbols can be left but there are some pretty egregious examples that should be changed. For example, Nathan Bedford Forrest probably shouldn't be honored in any official way given his record and actions when it came to black citizens of this country. Even giving allowances for the time he lived his leadership of the KKK cannot be justified and was vehemently criticized and countered even at that time. The same goes for several others who were unapologetic in their racism and continued to vigorously fight equality even post-war.

 

[Pags]

Some names and symbols can be left but there are some pretty egregious examples that should be changed. For example, Nathan Bedford Forrest probably shouldn't be honored in any official way given his record and actions when it came to black citizens of this country. Even giving allowances for the time he lived his leadership of the KKK cannot be justified and was vehemently criticized and countered even at that time. The same goes for several others who were unapologetic in their racism and continued to vigorously fight equality even post-war.

Unlike others like LGEN James Longstreet who were hated by the postbellum south because of their support of the Federal government.

 

[RobLyman]

I grew up in the south. I don't really care for the confederate flag, but I think political correctness is out of control. Should they fly the confederate flag? I say no. Can they fly the flag if they want to? I say yes. How many rights should we stomp on trying stop a jackass from being a jackass?

 

[Flash]

I grew up in the south. I don't really care for the confederate flag, but I think political correctness is out of control. Should they fly the confederate flag? I say no. Can they fly the flag if they want to? I say yes. How many rights should we stomp on trying stop a jackass from being a jackass?

I have heard no one of any substance call for the flag to be 'banned', that would be illegal. The recent calls for its removal are for it to not be officially recognized except in museums.

 

[RobLyman]

I have heard no one of any substance call for the flag to be 'banned', that would be illegal. The recent calls for its removal are for it to not be officially recognized except in museums.

Some schools have already tried to ban shirts/t-shirts with the confederate flag. Google confederate-flag-shirt-school and you'll see. I am saying I would not support a ban. In fact, I am a little saddened by retailers who are refusing to sell items depicting the confederate flag. Clearly they thought there was a market for the items, but are only now concerned enough about how it looks that they are discontinuing the items. I don't care for the confederate flag and the racial connotations that are now so strongly associated with it, but I really don't like the way we as a society are trending toward being guilty until proven innocent of a mere accusation of racism. The recent reaction to the confederate flag and other events smack of this.

 

[ea6bflyr]

 

[Flash]

Some schools have already tried to ban shirts/t-shirts with the confederate flag. Google confederate-flag-shirt-school and you'll see. .

And that is fully within a school's right to do so, student rights to free speech (high school and below) can be limited if school officials feel the speech disrupts school activities. Or in the words of the Supreme Court; "A school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school." As a matter of fact a school banned the wearing of American flags a few years ago, a decision that was upheld by the US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in Dariano v. Morgan Hills School District. A decision that still stands since the Supreme Court declined to review the case earlier this year. Frankly it is a lot like the military where we are limited in our freedom of speech so as to maintain 'good order and discipline'.

So again, not a ban by any means for anyone but some schoolkids who are actually at school or official displays. Folks are still free to slap one on their car, porch or tattoo it to their ass if that is what they want to do.

I am saying I would not support a ban. In fact, I am a little saddened by retailers who are refusing to sell items depicting the confederate flag. Clearly they thought there was a market for the items, but are only now concerned enough about how it looks that they are discontinuing the items. I don't care for the confederate flag and the racial connotations that are now so strongly associated with it, but I really don't like the way we as a society are trending toward being guilty until proven innocent of a mere accusation of racism. The recent reaction to the confederate flag and other events smack of this.

That is the choice of businesses, it is a bit bandwagon-ish and hypocritical to do it now but not necessarily a bad one. And I am certain it won't be too hard to find the flags and associated merchandise even with the controversy, after all the internet is a big place.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

It is a part of history, history is history, whether good or bad, but that doesn't mean it needs to be flown, I grew up in the north, the high school where I went was called the Rebels, and people would wave the confederate battle flag.

What gets me is the article I read today, the writer was talking about how places like Amazon have banned selling anything with the confederate flag yet they still allow Nazi items to be sold.

 

[RobLyman]

That is the choice of businesses, it is a bit bandwagon-ish and hypocritical to do it now but not necessarily a bad one. And I am certain it won't be too hard to find the flags and associated merchandise even with the controversy, after all the internet is a big place.

Is it bandwagon-ish (btw, I like that word) or is it out of fear? If bandwagon-ish - meh. Out of fear, that is something totally different.

 

[Flash]

Is it bandwagon-ish (btw, I like that word) or is it out of fear? If bandwagon-ish - meh. Out of fear, that is something totally different.

Probably a pure business decision on most companies' parts, great PR on the evening news and avoids controversy. Out of fear? You would have to ask the companies....