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Stars and Bars

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
^Leave it to a northerner to come down tell a southern man how to live his life, run his government, and interpret his history. Hilarious.
First, just because he is a Yankee, doesn't mean he's wrong.
Second, by winning the Civil War, that right was earned.
Pays to be a winner, sucks to be a loser. General Lee and Johnson chose the wrong team. The flag is a symbol, and that symbol represents a lot of shit, not just to good ole boy southerners, but to the descendants of their chattel that still live there. Both sides get a vote, and the side of "The South Will Rise Again!" loses.

You can be pissed about it, but you end up sounding like an asshole or an idiot (you pick) to the educated masses.

Move on,
Pickle

PS,
Born in Virgina, spent the majority of my life south of the Mason/Dixon line and own a bigger truck than anyone else on AirWarriors.
 

N4Life

Member
I’m concerned about the presentence of demonizing an idea/physical object in order remove it, not because of the view by those who use it but because of the fear of others. We pride ourselves on accepting all views, not just those of the majority, but then we turn around demonize something and those who believe in that idea, even if we misidentify why they believe in it.

The nice thing about growing up in a government family is that I grew up across the U.S. and overseas. I went to an international school (where even some of the primary school teachers held doctorates). They taught us that the civil war had multiple causes from the political to sociological, economical to technological (many matching the views that led to the American Revolution). In comparison, my neighbor’s niece visiting from the NE for the summer comment her school taught them that the sole reason for the war was slavery. She actually believed that the majority of the south owned slaves. I believe it was actually less than 20% and even then maybe only one slave (still wrong but much different from perception taught). How much of this is the victors write the history. I know, the past is what happened, history is what is written, and half of writing history is knowing what to write, and more importantly what to leave out. I do wonder how much of that is power focused; in that the south is heavily republican and in order to demonize the party/region, history was adjusted to create perception of continual ideals for political power.

Some say the flag is centered on hate and racism, but for many (I would say most) it a pride in the region. Much in the way people fly Cuban or Mexican or Japanese flags of their historical roots, or take pride in being and Irish-America or Korean-America or Pakistani-American, or to be from the Midwest, or Northeast or whatever region of the U.S. They are all proud Americans, but why is okay to be proud of your historical roots (good and bad) for some but not others? I was stationed in Georgia and Florida, and worked in Alabama during college (still talk to many of these friends). For them it was the ideals of the south that they focused on; independence, states’ rights, family, helping others. Is it right that we demonize them because others look at the flag and focused on racism? What about Islam, some have used it to attack others in the name of Islam, should we ban any mentioned of the religion in the U.S. because of a few people or because of what some people outside of Islam focus on?

Some have pointed out that this was the flag of the CSA, so what? If the meaning of the flag is now to represent the south instead of the CSA isn’t that distinguish a good thing. Things evolve, and what represented one small thing has evolved into something a larger things is normal. The title Commander in Chief was used only during times of war but not synonym for the President of the United States. To use my nerdism, the symbol of the USS Enterprise as a ship (a command patch if you will) in TOS, now represents the Federation as a whole. Do we say, you can’t stand behind that symbol and what it stands for now, because originally it stood for something else?

What happened in Charleston was bad, but to demonize someone because of your belief and forcing your views on others is wrong. Again, I’m concerned about the presentence of demonizing an idea/physical object in order remove it, not because of the view by those who use it but because of the fear of others.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor

Agree to disagree. I don't pretend to tell you what something means to you, and that's the crux of this entire debate, forcing an opinion on someone because they "think" their opinion is correct about the meaning.


For a point of clarity though, do you tell people who fly flags of countries we've fought in wars against to "get the fuck out". I mean, Japan and Germany were hell bent on destroying anything and everything American yet those flags fly quite a bit these days. Those countries also committed some pretty horrible atrocities but it's all good now, right? Why the double standard?
 

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
The German flag as it exists today was adopted after WWII. It has nothing to do with the Nazi Germany you're referring to. Additionally, I don't know of any government buildings that fly German or Japanese flags as a matter of pride/heritage.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Spekkio is calling for the CSA flag to be banned; but rather that it has no business being flown over government buildings.

Edit: sorry I re read his post and I don't know how I missed the stuff about "getting out". I don't think it should be flown over government buildings but who am I to stop an individual from flying it proudly?

I'll go back to coloring now.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
For a point of clarity though, do you tell people who fly flags of countries we've fought in wars against to "get the fuck out." I mean, Japan and Germany were hell bent on destroying anything and everything American yet those flags fly quite a bit these days. Those countries also committed some pretty horrible atrocities but it's all good now, right? Why the double standard?
Any private citizen or entity should be able to fly any flag they choose, without fear of it making them the target of a criminal act. Nazi flag, Japanese flag, Confederate battle flag, rainbow flag . . . any flag. Granted, they have no right to complain about other people using their own rights to boycott them, criticize them, or refuse to associate with them after they do so.

But state governments do not have First Amendment rights. And it's wholly inappropriate for a state government to fly that flag. There is no double standard. There are two different standards. You can criticize the government of your state, but it's not like you can boycott or refuse to associate with it. And don't feed me the "get out" argument. Not everyone is rich enough to exercise that option at will.

I'll be the first in line to defend the right of a private citizen to fly the flag in their capacity as such. I disapprove of it with every fiber of my being, but I'll defend to the death their right to do so. Even if those disgusting, cowardly, and Orwellian social justice weaklings are already tuning up the band. But a government represents all of us. Majority and minority. Young, old, military, civilian, male, female, gay, straight, white, black, red, brown, yellow, or purple with pink polka dots. And that's why they can't fly that flag.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
But state governments do not have First Amendment rights. And it's wholly inappropriate for a state government to fly that flag.

If we're gonna debate, let's make sure we debate the correct topic. Spekkio said, "Anyone who flies the Confederate flag is sending the message that they would rather not be part of America. To that I say you are welcome to leave." That's what I was talking about, and there is a very distinct double standard if "anyone who flies the Confederate Flag" is different than anyone flying a flag of any country we've ever taken up arms against.


As for the flag over the state capitol, my only take on it is that the people who live in that state may choose whether that is permissible or not. The rest of us can shut the fuck up about that choice, myself included.

If this were a debate about a Confederate flag over a federal building, then I actually agree that it shouldn't fly. The only flag over a Federal building is the U.S. flag. Any other flag is no go, and that would apply to a Confederate flag as well as other flags, such as foreign countries or even the LBGT flag.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
^Leave it to a northerner to come down tell a southern man how to live his life, run his government, and interpret his history. Hilarious.

Well the south did so well running things themselves the 100 or so years after losing the war, making sure all their citizens lived in a free and peaceful society with equal opportunity for all. Worked out well until the Feds came along and ruined it all....
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Agree to disagree. I don't pretend to tell you what something means to you, and that's the crux of this entire debate, forcing an opinion on someone because they "think" their opinion is correct about the meaning.


For a point of clarity though, do you tell people who fly flags of countries we've fought in wars against to "get the fuck out". I mean, Japan and Germany were hell bent on destroying anything and everything American yet those flags fly quite a bit these days. Those countries also committed some pretty horrible atrocities but it's all good now, right? Why the double standard?
First: You can fly the confederate flag as an exercise of your free speech. Just understand that to the other 99.9% that don't share your special snowflake sentiment about it, that it is a symbol that supports violent rebellion against the U.S. in order to preserve slavery.

Secondly, almost every immigrant I've met (and my wife's family is full of them) are more proud to be an American than any natural born citizen outside of those who volunteered for military service. So I would equally say that anyone who identifies himself as German, Japanese, English, Italian, etc., etc. rather than American should go back and live in those countries and gtfo.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
First: You can fly the confederate flag as an exercise of your free speech. Just understand that to the other 99.9% that don't share your special snowflake sentiment about it, that it is a symbol that supports violent rebellion against the U.S. in order to preserve slavery.

Secondly, almost every immigrant I've met (and my wife's family is full of them) are more proud to be an American than any natural born citizen outside of those who volunteered for military service. So I would equally say that anyone who identifies himself as German, Japanese, English, Italian, etc., etc. rather than American should go back and live in those countries and gtfo.

As you've obviously met everyone in the U.S. and know everything about people's motives and intentions...who exactly is being close minded right now? :rolleyes:
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
I'm curious, how many of the responders here actually grew up in the South? Flash is the only one who's acknowledged living there (other than everyone's time in flight school).

South Carolina (the vinegar and black pepper BBQ portion of the state).

mpLxTDykVCsUZnhkEjLNLIg.jpg


Been on vacation in Europe (the strong dollar is a wonderful thing) but saw in the Brit newspaper The Telegraph an interesting observation from an outsider's perspective. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lag-is-a-symbol-of-Americas-culture-wars.html

For those of you who have not seen Ken Burns' "The Civil War", a remastered version is being shown on PBS 7 - 11 September http://www.pbs.org/civilwar/ To this day, it is the most watched show (actually 11 episodes) in the history of PBS - it won over 40 awards. Do not miss this if you have never seen it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_(TV_series)
 
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