Still no SWO slots?

[HAL Pilot]

This post included with your others, you have a funny way trying to make your point without ever really doing so.

I'm just a smart a$$ at heart, sometimes I'm funny and sometimes I just sound dumb.

My point: I feel choosing SWO over NFO (or most other designators) is like choosing to pound your head against a brick wall instead of laying your head on a pillow. One hurts and the other feels good. On what do I base this opinion? On the biggest self-inflicted pain of my Navy career. During my carrier tour, when the ship went into the yards for a 9 month over-haul, I though it would be a great opportunity to "expand my horizons", see how the other half lives and earn a SWO pin. My CO, in exchange for me extending my 24 month carrier tour to 36 months, arranged for me to spend 7 months no cost TAD on a Spruance. I was a newly minted LCDR, CVN OOD & CDO underway (including sea & anchor and conning alongside) and CVN TAO (I taught TAO school at Dam Neck and quickly qualified on the CVN prior to switching to bridge watch). My CVN CO was a former shoe and one of his buds was the Spru Can CO. The shoe CO thought I had a lot to offer his wardroom JOs (teach them about CVNs and brown shoe stuff). Both COs loved the idea and I was off to the races. I was basically paired with the shoe XO and did his job (with his coaching) while I did SWO PQS/quals and spent the better part of the 7 months at sea doing drug ops in the Caribbean. I got the SWO pin, learned a hell of a lot and came to realize just how miserable life could be. I saw first hand the "eat their young" mentality. The SWO XO was actually amazed at what he called "my patience" with his Divos and DHs when I thought I was being extremely demanding and harsh. The amount of $hit I caught from the DESRON staff for trying to expand my professional qualifications/knowledge was unbelievable. Although I am glad I did this, I would never recommend it to any other aviator. It was pure hell and no fun at all. But I refused to quit, never b!tched and stuck it out.

Hence my original question about choosing to chew off your arm. I feel anyone who would choose SWO must like self-inflicted pain.

On a serious note - I realize the Navy is ships and ships need SWOs. While I would not willingly submit to the self-inflicted pain of being a SWO, I admire the self-sacrifice and patriotism of those who's sense of duty compells them to continue to serve as SWOs under these conditions.

 

[Brett327]

I admire the self-sacrifice and patriotism of those who's sense of duty compells them to continue to serve as SWOs under these conditions.

"THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELLS YOU!"

Sorry, couldn't resist
End Exorcist fit

Brett

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I'm just a smart a$$ at heart, sometimes I'm funny and sometimes I just sound dumb.

My point: I feel choosing SWO over NFO (or most other designators) is like choosing to pound your head against a brick wall instead of laying your head on a pillow. One hurts and the other feels good. On what do I base this opinion? On the biggest self-inflicted pain of my Navy career. During my carrier tour, when the ship went into the yards for a 9 month over-haul, I though it would be a great opportunity to "expand my horizons", see how the other half lives and earn a SWO pin. My CO, in exchange for me extending my 24 month carrier tour to 36 months, arranged for me to spend 7 months no cost TAD on a Spruance. I was a newly minted LCDR, CVN OOD & CDO underway (including sea & anchor and conning alongside) and CVN TAO (I taught TAO school at Dam Neck and quickly qualified on the CVN prior to switching to bridge watch). My CVN CO was a former shoe and one of his buds was the Spru Can CO. The shoe CO thought I had a lot to offer his wardroom JOs (teach them about CVNs and brown shoe stuff). Both COs loved the idea and I was off to the races. I was basically paired with the shoe XO and did his job (with his coaching) while I did SWO PQS/quals and spent the better part of the 7 months at sea doing drug ops in the Caribbean. I got the SWO pin, learned a hell of a lot and came to realize just how miserable life could be. I saw first hand the "eat their young" mentality. The SWO XO was actually amazed at what he called "my patience" with his Divos and DHs when I thought I was being extremely demanding and harsh. The amount of $hit I caught from the DESRON staff for trying to expand my professional qualifications/knowledge was unbelievable. Although I am glad I did this, I would never recommend it to any other aviator. It was pure hell and no fun at all. But I refused to quit, never b!tched and stuck it out.

Hence my original question about choosing to chew off your arm. I feel anyone who would choose SWO must like self-inflicted pain.

On a serious note - I realize the Navy is ships and ships need SWOs. While I would not willingly submit to the self-inflicted pain of being a SWO, I admire the self-sacrifice and patriotism of those who's sense of duty compells them to continue to serve as SWOs under these conditions.

I'm a smartass too. Add a couple Foster's to the equation and the genius in me really starts to flow. Yes, the SWO community can be a ruthless and unforgiving place especially if one has a thin skin or doesn't want to put in the effort to qualify or do their job. In your situation, I can see why it was pure hell for you. Let's face it, aviators and SWO's have a different way of doing things. I don't think we can say one is better or worse.

 

[buckeye_pilot]

I am a SWO who was lucky enough to get a lateral transfer to aviation. I completed the entire training pipeline from primary to advanced helo only to be told in the end that my NSS was not high enough and I would not get winged. They did waivers for A LOT of students before me and just decided to stop even though I was only 2.5 points shy. Approxomately $1.2 million dollars down the drain. As I am sure you must wonder why I am telling you this? Well, I went back to being a damn shoe and no matter how ticked I am at the aviation community, I would go back in a second if they would let me. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO BE A SWO? It is the most thankless job in the Navy.

 

[UncleFester]

Word, Buckeye. I've worn the shoes of black and the shoes of brown, and I can tell you for a fact that your worst day in aviation is better than your best day as a shoe. Yes, you do "keep busy" as a SWO, but the operative word is "busy". As in "busywork". Shoes will freely admit (at least to each other) that 90% of the pain of being a shoe is entirely self-inflicted. It's a world of pain, Smoky. A world of pain.
Let me put it this way: in my first wardroom, every single JO was either getting out or lateral-transferring. I dare you to find a squadron where that's true.
And if you think for one microsecond that anyone can get "dumped" into aviation, you're very sadly misinformed. Every aspect of flight school, pilot or NFO, requires a commitment that's only born of an intense desire to fly. Show me a SWOS class where that's true. (Do they even do SWOS anymore?)
And as a final point... you want so badly to be a shoe and have such a low opinion of aviators... but you're reading and posting on an aviation board?

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I am a SWO who was lucky enough to get a lateral transfer to aviation. I completed the entire training pipeline from primary to advanced helo only to be told in the end that my NSS was not high enough and I would not get winged. They did waivers for A LOT of students before me and just decided to stop even though I was only 2.5 points shy. Approxomately $1.2 million dollars down the drain. As I am sure you must wonder why I am telling you this? Well, I went back to being a damn shoe and no matter how ticked I am at the aviation community, I would go back in a second if they would let me. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO BE A SWO? It is the most thankless job in the Navy.

Well, first off, I'm sorry that happened to you. I've known a few guys where the very same think happened. It sucks. But if you're so unhappy being a SWO, you have two options. You can try to lateral over to another community if aviation won't give you another shot or can get out of the navy. No hurt feeling over getting out. You've done your duty. Just don't leave pissed off at the world.

Let me put it this way: in my first wardroom, every single JO was either getting out or lateral-transferring. I dare you to find a squadron where that's true.

Apples and oranges comparison. The MSR for aviators is a lot longer for aviators than for SWO's. Guys on their first tour are definitely not gonna be punching out yet. Either way, your example smells of significant problems with the command climate there.

And if you think for one microsecond that anyone can get "dumped" into aviation, you're very sadly misinformed.

Hate to be the one to break the news to you, but it is indeed happening.

Every aspect of flight school, pilot or NFO, requires a commitment that's only born of an intense desire to fly.

Raising the BS flag here. Indeed, it requires a commitment to make it through the program. But what URL community doesn't require that? An intense desire to fly is definitely not necessary to make it through. If you have that passion, that's great, but realize not everyone does.

Show me a SWOS class where that's true.

Well, as SWO's our job isn't to fly aircraft, so that "intense desire" to fly is most likely not going to be found. But I know what you're saying.

And as a final point... you want so badly to be a shoe and have such a low opinion of aviators... but you're reading and posting on an aviation board?

Who are you directing this at?

 

[Falcaner]

Hey Road how is Pensacola treating you. I am sure that the weather has to be better then it has been hear of late. Oh I know 18 months is not exactly adhered to and there are ways around it, but some people would like you to think that is the case. Anyway I just wanted to put my two cents in about wardroom politics when it comes to SWO V Aviator. The best example I can give is it is a bit like being on survivor when you are a SWO. You must make alliances that will best suit you and always be guarded and suspicious of your fellow JO's. This is simply because you never know when one of them is going to rat you out about one thing or another. And if you don’t think this can happen believe me it can! Where as in aviation JO actually help one another and stick together AKA JOPA. It is a significant difference. Just something to think about.

 

[DanMa1156]

you want so badly to be a shoe and have such a low opinion of aviators... but you're reading and posting on an aviation board?

Set. Served. Aaaaaaaand SPIKED!

 

[bch]

Set. Served. Aaaaaaaand SPIKED!

Damn a highschooler trying to talk smack... Dude you are not even in A community yet.

 

[Road Program]

Falconer...P'cola is fine. Start sims next week....God help me.

You know what? I take that back. P'cola sucks. Someone asked me the other day why everyone goes to McGuire's. My response? 'Cuz there's nowhere else to go. I hate this town. I thought I hated VaBeach, but that's lookin' pretty damn good right now. My commute to work covers two interstates and surface streets and the speed limit is no higher than 45 at any given point. WTF?! Well, at least I'm sitting through any snow storms or ridiculously cold weather.

Alrighty, off to bed for me. The sims open at 0630 and I'm going to be waiting on the steps by 0625 for practice. Can't say I ever looked forward to MSI or anything at SWOS besides going home as early as possible.

Here's a fun bit of trivia for the SWOs out there: When was the last time a SM-2 was fired in anger? (hitting a commercial airliner does not count)

A true SWO DH would not let you go home until you had the exact date, location, ship, and target. Here's a hint...if you were answering that question for a "true SWO DH" you'd need to get a change of address form from the post office.

 

[HAL Pilot]

And as a final point... you want so badly to be a shoe and have such a low opinion of aviators... but you're reading and posting on an aviation board?

If this was addressed to Steve Wilkins, I'd say he has every right to be on airwarriors. He created the site.

 

[webmaster]

Jumping on the bandwagon....

And as a final point... you want so badly to be a shoe and have such a low opinion of aviators... but you're reading and posting on an aviation board?

Dude, don't know if you are referring to Steve or not, if not, apologize in advance for the flames coming next...

Steve doesn't need someone to stick up for him, god knows he is sarcastic and blunt enough to do it himself.... BUT, to give you a clue of how far you put your foot in your mouth... He went through nuke school and aced it before you were even a PLEBE at the Academy. Got commissioned before you and I. Attended API and good old VT6 before you even hit the A-pool, and blazed through that program, had his civilian pilot's license and hours to boot. While there, in his free time, he created the first iteration of this site, and asked me to help, then take over later down the road. But decided, to the detriment of the aviation community, they he didn't want to be in our community. He didn't get booted, he didn't attrite, and the Wing Commodore himself tried to talk him out of it. I did my best also to convince him otherwise, but lost the arguement. I still think we lost a good one, to the SWO communities gain.

So, if there is any damn SWO that has a fvcking rite to post on this board, with his opinions on the matter, it damn well is him... Plus, you go out to the bar with him, and he is a sucker for buying the next round!

 

[buckeye_pilot]

I don't know if the quote about having a low opinion of aviators was directed at me or not. Some of my best friends are the people I went through flight school with at HT-8 and HT-18. I like aviators a lot, except for that CNATRA guy. I definitely had an intense desire to fly and I commited myself fully to Navy flight training for 1.5 years. Of course hind sight is 20/20 and maybe I could have done a few things differently. I can say that I gave it 110% while I was there. I can tell you one thing, you get ONE shot at aviation and that is it. If you don't make it, your Naval career is over. I was lucky that I had my SWO pin and could stay in. As for lat transfering to another community, with the state of the Navy now, I doubt it would be possible. I am definitely not a SPECOPS guy and you have to sell your soul to get into Intel. I like being in the Navy though and I want to continue my service. Plus, I don't know what else to do right now. Most other jobs seem boring to me. Not that floating on the ocean with a lack of sleep is exciting, but at least we get to go to cool places once in a while. I plan to continue getting my certifications in the civilian world when I am done here in Japan. I suppose after I get done with this SWO thing and I have enough money saved up I can try that Embry-Riddle program that trains pilots directly for the airlines (I think it's called CAP). Don't worry, I won't get out of the Navy pissed off at the world.

 

[jmac12]

First, alot of the SWO billets go to the academy and ROTC guys because they are supposed to go unrestriced line. That is why there are so few for OCS types. As for Road Program, I was once in your shoes and Thought Pensacola was the worst place in the world. Once you get to other exotic navy locations such as Lemoore, CA, you will realize you are living in a tropical paradise with beaches less than 30 min in any direction,well, except North. Enjoy your time there while you have it. Talk to any pilot type in Meridian or Kingsville and they will tell you what a crappy town is really like. Just my two cents.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I plan to continue getting my certifications in the civilian world when I am done here in Japan. I suppose after I get done with this SWO thing and I have enough money saved up I can try that Embry-Riddle program that trains pilots directly for the airlines (I think it's called CAP). Don't worry, I won't get out of the Navy pissed off at the world.

Okay - a little thread highjack here....

Whatever you do, don't do the ERAU CAP program or any other PFT (pay for training) program that says they guarantee you a pilot job once they are finished. First - there is no such thing as a guaranteed job. Second - this will close more doors for you than it will open. There is a lot of hate and anger aimed at PFT for various reasons (some valid some not). Third - there are plenty of ways that are a lot cheaper to get into commercial aviation. Go to flightinfo.com and search on PFT, gulfstream or CAP to read a lot more on this subject. While waiting for my recall to Hawaiian, I am once again flying the Grand Canyon and various EAS routes for Scenic Airlines. We are part 121 flying DHC-6 Twin Otters and Beech 1900s. We probably have some of the lowest minimums at 600 total and 100 multi. We also direct hire Captains and this means we get a lot of higher time pilots looking for that all important 1000 hours of turbine PIC. Our Chief Pilot immediately throws out any resume that comes in with a PFT job on it.

My advice - Navy flying clubs. Get as many of your ratings to include CFI, CFII and MEI as you can while on active duty. Become an instructor at the club and build your hours while someone pays you.

If you can't finish all your ratings before you get out, try someplace like Delta Connection Academy (expensive but a good program. I did my CFI, CFII & MEI there) or ATP, Inc. At DCA, if you do good in their program, play their political BS games and are willing to work for peanuts as a CFI for a year; you will get an interview at Comair. Only about 25% get all the way to Comair but if you survived as a SWO, you probably have the political skills to do it. ATPs will take you from a private ticket through MEI in 4 to 5 months and than keep you on as an instructor (again working for peanuts). This is good because multiengine time is king and at ATPs you get mostly multi time.

Be prepared to work for peanuts until at least your second or third year at a regional. They call it "paying your dues". I call it the BS fallout from pilots willing to accept low wages and go the PFT route. (With PFT you are basically working your first year for free as the PFT will be at least what your first year salary is. With the CAP, it's probably the first 2 to 3 years' salary).

If you can leave the Navy with Commercial ASEL & AMEL instrument ratings, and part 135 VFR minumums (basically 500 hours) you can fly the Grand Canyon and build hours that way.

My route from NFO to Hawaiian: Navy Flying Clubs while active duty; DCA for CFI, CFII & MEI (did not instruct there as back than it was PFT to Comair Airlines after DCA - not anymore); flight instructing for 6 months, Grand Canyon flying in a C207 for 6 months; Scenic Airlines Twin Otter for 1 1/2 years. I was lucky with my timing (pre 9/11) and in knowing pilots at Hawaiian (a must for my airline).

There are many good flight schools that take GI Bill. Navy Jax Flying Club does if you can get to Mayport.

DO NOT PFT - it seems like a short cut but it's not.

End of highjack.