SWO or Aviation--need EXPERIENCED voices

[nfo2b]

Okay, as the title suggests, these questions are posed to the more experienced aviators in here--those who have been in the community for more than 1 tour, and have (if this is possible for aviators ) have outgrown the bravado and "all shoes are evil" attitudes of their JO youth. I'd like some mature wisdom here, not just "Go aviation, it's the coolest, and 'shoes' eat their young!" I've heard all that from the younger guys here, and it's not helpful. So here goes:
I've got a buddy here at UofA, a fellow STA-21 OC who's CORE (i.e. not designated or locked in to any community). I'm NFO option. We're both seniors, and he must make his community decision soon. He's just about got it narrowed down to SWO-Nuke or NFO (doesn't have the eyes for pilot). Being a former nuke, he knows what to expect from the former, and having been there, he knows that he would enjoy it. Some of the advantages he lists are:

1. Only 20% of sea-going career on a Nuke platform
2. Variety of sea-duty (i.e. first sea tour can be ANYTHING, not just CVN)
3. Large variety of shore-duty assignments
4. Early promotion to O-4 (SWO-N's spot promote to LCDR upon billeting to PA in about 9 yrs)
5. Driving ships--whether you care to admit it or not, this IS cool!
6. EXTREMELY valuable experience for the outside job market.
7. More leadership experience (i.e. SWO-N's spend more time managing divisions and sailors than aviators, who spend much of their "officer" time flying."
8. Very little possibility of getting attrited from your training pipeline and dismissed from the Navy (unlike the current aviation pipeline situation--20% attrition? Ouch.)

Of course, there is the $$, but he doesn't want to base his decision on that. He knows that being a SWO-N will be harder (more work, longer hours, etc.), but that doesn't bother him, as he has a pretty strong work ethic. And there are other things that attract him to the "dark side," but the other things are comparable to counterparts as an NFO (i.e. interesting career, job satisfaction, etc.), so this list is just what he considers advantage-SWO-N items.
So he comes to me, an NFO option OC, and asks me what the NFO community has to offer beyond just the coolness of flying in airplanes, and why I chose NFO (answer: just to do something different--had been a Nuke for 8 years). And therein lies the crux of this situation: being a former nuke myself, I know very little about NFO, or the Naval Aviation community in general. I've been a member here now for a couple of years, and in those two years, here's what I've learned about Naval Aviation:

1. About 90% of aviators LOVE their jobs
2. About 190% of aviators LOVE themselves
3. All aviators think that all "shoes" are evil, and that noone in their right mind would even consider doing anything other than Aviator, especially SWO--and may noone ever mention that 4-letter word "n-u-k-e"

So when my buddy Jeremy asks me "Why should I choose NFO?" I really don't have a good objective answer for him. Like I said, my reasons are personal and simple, and aren't based on any percieved advantages of NFO over SWO-N, other than the fact that it's not SWO-N.
So that's why I directed this question to the more experienced aviators here. I'd like a mature perspective on why "NFO is preferable to SWO-anything." What are some things, that NFO has to offer beyond an exciting time flying planes (which, after all, may not be exciting at all if either him or I get stuck in the back of a dark tube flying ovals or zig-zags for 8 hours straight staring at a radar screen, a la E-2C's or P-3's--owwww!) Can I get a detailed layout of the post-flight school career path, up through O-6? Can you counter his points above with equivalent advantages on the NFO side?
Again, I respectfully ask that noone responds with anything along the lines of "Naval aviation ROCKS, everything else SUCKS!" or "SWO? I heard they eat their young!"
Like I said, I've already heard all of that, and it doesn't faze me.
Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Brett327]

Sounds like work!

 

[HAL Pilot]

3 words - Quality Of Life.

When not deployed, you have a life. On the ship, you have more of a life than the ship's company. Plus flying is FUN. Watching the neutrons glow is boring.

If he has a family, it's hard enough balancing work and family as an aviator. As a SWO with in-port duty sections, non-deployment sea periods, etc - it's almost impossible. You will spend more time at home as a flyer.

I've driven both planes and ships (even got SWO qualified). Planes are cool, ships are not.

 

[nfo2b]

Plus flying is FUN. Watching the neutrons glow is boring.

Your other points are valid and taken on board, but this one just doesn't make sense here: for one, we're talking NFO, not Pilot. NFO's aren't the ones flying the plane, per se, but are rather passengers. And not that that's all that bad, so long as you get assigned to Prowlers, or in the future, growlers. But like I said above, riding in the back of a dark tube flying around in circles for at least 8 hours straight doing nothing but staring at a radar/sonar/whatever screen sounds about as fun as watching paint dry--even less fun than "watching neutrons glow." Which by the way is not all there is to SWO-N. I was a nuke for 10 years before STA-21, and I loved the engineering aspect. So did J.T. (the guy I'm talking about in the situation above). PPWO's do so much more than "watch neutrons glow." They manage and operate, per plant, a 540MW nuclear reactor, a 4160V electical power generation and distribution station, and 2 200,000HP ship propulsion sets. And then they've got PPD's (drills)! Not that I want to go back to that, mind you, as I'm NFO option, and I like it that way. But it's certainly not as boring as you make it out to be. And if I knew right now that I was going to be stuck in an E-2C or P-3 (or it's successor) as an NFO, then I might consider another career path. (BTW, if there are any Hawkeye/Orion NFO's here that want to tell me that their job is fun, the please, chime in!)
But I digress, your points on QOL are significant, and I believe that NFO would most likely be the better way to go in that area. Could you give me some specifics? Time spent on watch, time spent at home, time away from home, flying, etc.?
Thanks!

 

[nfo2b]

Sounds like you better consider some other options. That's a very poor attitude to have. I'd go into further detail, but since I haven't completed a fleet tour yet, I see that you don't want my input.

Why do you say that? As I've said a couple of times above, I don't want to be stuck in the back of a dark tube flying racetrack patterns, staring at some sort of computer screen. If the life of a Hawkeye/Orion NFO is drastically different than this, then please, let me know. I even solicited this in my previous post. As I've already humbly admitted, I really don't know all that much about the NFO community, so my uneducated guesses at what these specific NFO's do may be way off. That is part of the reason I started this thread! And, as HAL Pilot has already said, it's all about QOL. And for me (and J.T.), a huge part of this QOL is how much you like your job. If I'm right about P-3/E-2C NFO's (and judging from my discussions with a couple of former Airdale OC's here at the unit, I'm not too far off), then I don't expect alot of job satisfaction from that. That is solely a personal thing--a matter of personal preference. It's not a "poor attitude," it's a juxtaposition of my perceptions of what the job of those specific NFO's may be like with my own personal preferences and interests. You do the same thing every day. It's human.
BTW, while I didn't mean to completely exclude all "first termers" from replying (only those who haven't outgrown the machismo "aviators rule, shoes suck!" stage yet), I'm not sure that someone with a subtext of "Stick Monkey" below their user name would be able to "elaborate" on much pertinent to the specifics that I'm asking about here (i.e., Stick Monkey implies pilot, correct?). However, if you have a valid point to make, then by all means, I respectfully implore you to fill in the blanks of my insufficient knowledge of the NFO community!

 

[A4sForever]

"Naval Aviators rule, blackshoes suck!" (just kidding :icon_wink )

Oooops, sorry. I will go away now.

Before I do, the following was my priority list 35+ years ago. It still would be today -- considering the many things that factor into the decision. What you are REALLY gonna' get usually depends on timing and needs of the Navy. Or is it needs of the Navy and timing ...? I never could figure out the order ...

Naval Aviator
Naval Flight Officer
Naval Officer (surface/nuke/supply/medical/Seabee, pick a number)

That's no help --- you gotta go with what YOU want. And then timing. And then Needs of the Navy. Or is it the other way ... ?

ROGER BALL !!

 

[nfo2b]

A4sForever,
(As I threadjack my own thread), what's the story behind the 1-winged pilot crest?

 

[Tripp]

[smartass knowitall in the front row]I KNOW!! I KNOW!![/smartass knowitall in the front row]

But I'll let A4 answer it...

 

[A4sForever]

A4sForever,
(As I threadjack my own thread), what's the story behind the 1-winged pilot crest?

My NROTC Executive Officer had "Blimp Wings". I thought my eyes were going bad before I even "got going". I later learned some of the finer points of "lighter-that-air" from him ..... but don't think I was light in my loafers -- I'm not talking about that.

ROGER BALL !!!

 

[TurnandBurn55]

I don't want to be stuck in the back of a dark tube flying racetrack patterns, staring at some sort of computer screen.

I think the point my front-seat brudda is making is this:

What's the best you can expect as a top-side SWO? A strike officer on an Aegis Cruiser. Basically... driving around in a dark, air-conditioned room, staring at a computer screen.

What's the worst you can expect as an NFO? As you said.. driving around in circles as a P-3 or E-2 guy... staring at a computer screen.

What's worse as a SWO? Minesweeper. LHA. Oiler. Endless UNREPS at 4 am.

What's better as an NFO? Flying backseat in an EA-6B or an F/A-18F on the front lines, supporting the next major war.

I would venture to guess that whatever the promotion opportunities are in SWO-N, the -18F community is equally good. Why? Rhinos are topheavy with F-14 transition, which means there are comparitively few 'nuggets'.

I'm sorry I can't offer a lot of 'fleet experience'. But I was considering the same thing, either SWO-N or NFO, and I went through that same thought process.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Plus flying is FUN. Watching the neutrons glow is boring.

Your other points are valid and taken on board, but this one just doesn't make sense here: for one, we're talking NFO, not Pilot. NFO's aren't the ones flying the plane, per se, but are rather passengers.

If you feel this way, maybe you better go SWO. Although I am a commercial pilot now, I was a P-3 NFO in the Navy. And while I did not actually have the yoke in my hands, I (and all NFOs) considered my time spent in the plane as "flying". Your comment is just like saying the OOD does not drive the ship because the helmsman actually has the wheel in his hands.

Except for the single seat F/A-18s, "flying" the plane is a crew thing. True P-3s and E-2s can do bounce flights without the NFO portion of the crew, but to tacticaly "fly" the plane the NFOs have to be there. I was never a "passenger" and resent the hell out of a future NFO thinking NFOs are "passengers". The normal, good natured banter between pilots and NFOs is okay; but for you to seriously think this shows you need to go SWO.

BTW, I enjoyed being "stuck in the back of a dark tube flying racetrack patterns, staring at some sort of computer screen." There is a hell of a lot more going on than your mind seems to be able to grasp. There is a reason it's called Tactical Coordinator in the P-3. While a good tactical pilot can help alot, the mission won't fail with a just a "bus driver" up front. The mission WILL FAIL with an inept TACCO that doesn't know the mission, manage the crew& sensors, or know his tactics. On the E-2 side, I'd like to see a successful airwing strike or battle group defense with a NFO that is just "starring at some sort of computer screen". P-3 & E-2 NFOs are the quarterbacks of the team, not just some computer geek passengers.

Do NFOs throughout the fleet a favor - go SWO where you belong.

Could you give me some specifics? Time spent on watch, time spent at home, time away from home, flying, etc.?

Nope, you don't need them since you are going to ask to be switched to SWO. Tell your friend to ask questions here - I'll answer them if he shows respect for the NFO community.

 

[SteveG75]

As a wise and handsome post-DH (the JO's will say there is no such person), I'll try to answer some of these.

1. Only 20% of sea-going career on a Nuke platform
   So a SWO-N really doesn't go to sea much, is that your point? As an aviator, you can get through a CO tour (~18 years) and only have three sea tours (~8 years). OK, so that is 44%. But in those 8 years, you will probably do 4 deployments and some workups totalling ~2.5 years at sea (14% at sea). The rest of the time, you will be flying at home. Most of us spend more time at sea than that, but we do love to fly off ships.
   
2. Variety of sea-duty (i.e. first sea tour can be ANYTHING, not just CVN
   Aviation choices: P-3 land based, TACAIR CV, TACAIR Expeditionary (EA-6B), HS (CV), HSL (small boys), HC (supply ships or USNS ships). Is this an all inclusive list, probably not. Point is that there is a variety.
   
3. Large variety of shore-duty assignments
   Places that I know JO's have gone to after their first tour:
   RAG instructor
   VT instructor
   Pentagon
   Navy Warfare Development Command (Newport)
   PG School
   Academy instructor
   Tactical Training Group Pacific (Pt Loma, very nice location)
   Office of Naval Intelligence
   NSAWC (Fallon)
   NSWAC det at Nellis (all I know about this job is that some of the stuff is super classified)
   Exchange tour with Luftwaffe
   MISC (Missile Intelligence, Huntsville Alabama)
   ROTC instructor
   Flag aide
   
   I know of even more exotic places that O-4's have gone to (usually overseas).
   
4. Early promotion to O-4 (SWO-N's spot promote to LCDR upon billeting to PA in about 9 yrs)
   OK, normal promotion is 10 years.
   
5. Driving ships--whether you care to admit it or not, this IS cool!
   Aviators get to qualify CDO on the carrier when doing disassociated tours. Flying is also cool. Just ask a Whidbey guy about doing the VR1350/1355 combo. 1+30 hop with 1+20 of it at 500 feet, 420 knots down the Columbia River (actually down in it) and back up the spine of the Cascades (where the roadways on the mountainside are above the jet ).
   
6. EXTREMELY valuable experience for the outside job market.
   Your flying skills are just one block on your fitrep. You are a Naval Officer first and that is what companies are looking for. Leadership, management skills, time management skills, ability to organize and plan, etc. Unless of course you would rather work at 3 Mile Island or United Airlines, but those are technical jobs, not leadership jobs.
   
7. More leadership experience (i.e. SWO-N's spend more time managing divisions and sailors than aviators, who spend much of their "officer" time flying.
   Yeah, I flew two or three times a week, about a 6 hour evolution per. I then spent another 40 hours a week or so leading my sailors and managing my department. Same as above, flying is one block on the fitrep. Being a good Naval Officer is your number one job. Your technical skill is flying or operating a nuke plant. And don't forget the 4 hours on, 16 hours off duty schedule that you will live every day as a SWO. Lots of time left for leadership there.
   
8. Very little possibility of getting attrited from your training pipeline and dismissed from the Navy (unlike the current aviation pipeline situation--20% attrition? Ouch.)
   Does that mean everyone makes it through the SWO pipeline? Anything worthwhile is hard to get. Wings of gold are hard to get.

As for riding in the tube watching a screen. NFO's in the EA-6B and E-2 communities are commonly mission commanders. We run the show. An E-2 for command and control and a Prowler for SEAD are generally strike requirements. I have twenty strikers dependent on my ability to shut down an enemy's eyes long enough for them to put steel on target. The E-2 NFO has to know what every plane out there is doing.

Obviously, this is an aviation board and we enjoy what we do. If you want to check out real SWO mentality, try www.sailorbob.com .

 

[A4sForever]

The mission WILL FAIL with an inept TACCO that doesn't know the mission, manage the crew& sensors, or know his tactics.... On the E-2 side, I'd like to see a successful airwing strike or battle group defense with a NFO that is just "starring at some sort of computer screen".

He's right. Forget everything you ever learned about "Maverick" and "TopGun".

REAL WORLD: One of the biggest shocks for this loud-mouthed, swaggering, meat-eating, sword-swallower when I arrived in the Fleet was the importance of the NFO. Most guys I knew who went NFO did so because of eyes: visual acuity -- no more -- no less. Some were good, some were lousy, some were indispensable. Just like pilots, huh??

It always amazed me that if the "balloon ever went up" and we were going toe-to-toe with the Russkies or anyone else, the battle would be fought and won (or lost?) by some LTJG sitting in the back of an E-2.

We just hoped that LTJG was good ....

ROGER BALL !!

 

[Brett327]

Right on, Meat. Everything except the part about you being handsome. BTW, I hear Clappy is back and going through the RAG.

Brett

 

[PropStop]

As a P-3er (stick monkey type, not tube rat) I will say that P-3 NFO is a good job. At first you're a NavComm, which pretty much suuucks (at least they all seem to hate it, I know I wouldn't like it). After a certain period of time (depends on the squadron) you upgrade to TACCO. The TACCO is the driving force behind the P-3's mission. S/he takes all the data from the various sensor stations (manned by enlisted air warfare types), compiles it, and takes action on it. It is a team effort between all the stations; the TACCO is the nexus of this. Pilots have to know about tactics, but even if they are weak in that area, but they can follow the carrot on the screen and good TACCO can complete a mission.

P-3s do not just run laps in the sky like E-2s (i'm not sure that's all E-2s do either). We fly low, in the goo, yankin' and bankin' from 30-60 degrees at 200' to get on top of a sub. The TACCO also operates the weapons (most of the time) and can control missiles like the SLAM and Maverick just like you see on CNN.

P-3 NFO isn't a bad job. I think each community has its good and bad points for each position. Certainly an F-18 pilot has more fun flying his plane than a P-3er may but a P-3 is still quite fun to fly. Flying in general is FUN. It is also a crew aircraft - working with 11 people to kill a sub is FUN, it is challenging, and it is very rewarding.... we also have an oven and fridge, and if you're lucky a 3P who likes to cook.

If you want to be a Jet NFO only, and if you can't be that you'd rather be SWO, you should go SWO - because your attitude isn't right. If you got P-3s and hated it, *****ed, whined and moaned about it, not only would you hate life but also your peers would hate you. You takes the goods with the bads in aviation. I think there are more goods than bads in aviation than SWO - this is affirmed by every SWO turned pilot/nfo I’ve ever met.

Your fate though – I’ll take whacking subs and providing recon support directly to marines on the ground any day over counting neutrons.