SWO or Aviation--need EXPERIENCED voices

[A4sForever]

....If you want to check out real SWO mentality ...

check out SWO MENTALITY ???

I thought we were not suppose to post pornography here ...

ROGER BALL !!

 

[SteveG75]

check out SWO MENTALITY ???

I thought we were not suppose to post pornography here ...

ROGER BALL !!

Actually work with/for several SWO's. Great guys really but SB is so much fun to lurk on.

 

[SteveG75]

Right on, Meat. Everything except the part about you being handsome. BTW, I hear Clappy is back and going through the RAG.

Brett

Yeah, heard that too. Just got my hands on the Dec bubba list. Did I ever tell you how I did not get my DH ticket punched because we had too many hinges. Two of my competitors just got slid a year out of my selection group. :icon_rage

Of course, I saw some of the guys ahead of me that failed to select and there are some good people in that category. I guess if everything was a guarantee, life would be pretty boring.

 

[Brett327]

Yeah, heard that too. Just got my hands on the Dec bubba list. Did I ever tell you how I did not get my DH ticket punched because we had too many hinges. Two of my competitors just got slid a year out of my selection group. :icon_rage

Of course, I saw some of the guys ahead of me that failed to select and there are some good people in that category. I guess if everything was a guarantee, life would be pretty boring.

Begin threadjack that belongs in an IM...Yeah, the RAG was down here doing CQ last week, got to go out with the boys - standard progression from South Beach to Tony's. Lots of turnover and a couple hot female cones! That's gotta be a first...End threadjack.

Brett

 

[Road Program]

Can I pipe in here? I'm a former SWO. I did a tour on an LHD and a DDG before I lat xfer'd to NFO. I'm down in P'cola right now. Anyhoo...when you factor in all the ups and downs of both communities, I can not stress enough the quality of life. On the LHD I saw all the helo pilots (both USN and USMC) go out, fly, then hit the gym, then the wardroom, then watch movies. You know where they were when we hit port or homeport? Not on the ship, that's where. You know where all us guys who worked in engineering were? In the plant. Studying. Getting asses reamed by an angry Cheng. My DH on the DDG was a SWO-N who was doing his first DH tour on a DDG before going to a CVN (as a SWO-N, that's what you do). He hated it on the DDG. He liked the money, but he was just not the most pleasant person I've ever met...made life a lot harder than it needed to be.

Quality of life is huge, especially if you have a family. When you have to do CQ's as a squadron, you fly out there and fly back...maybe stay overnight. As ship's company, you steam out there, stay there, do the CQ's, and then stay out some more to do some other stuff. You can talk about the nobility of working hard all you want, but we all get paid the same (minus bonuses), so why work harder if you don't have to? Work smarter...yes, I think I heard that somewhere in some leadership thing.

And if you think you can't attrite from SWO, you're wrong. You go to your ship first, as a SWO-N you will go to anything BUT a CVN, try to get all your quals, then go to SWOS in Newport for three weeks, then come back to the ship and have another board for your pin. Guess what...in today's climate of overmanning, if you don't get your pin in time, you're out of the Navy...happened to a guy on my second ship.

Ask yourself this...how many pilots or Fo's have you met that ever said, "Boy, I wish I had gone SWO" and how many SWO's have you met that said, "Boy, I wish I had gone aviation?"

There was a guy in my API class who was a prior enlisted Nuke and I asked him why he didn't go back to the Nuke world as a SWO. His response: "Are you crazy?!"

 

[nfo2b]

HAL Pilot (and others),
Now we're getting somewhere. While your harsh and somewhat abusive language may just barely be justified here, this is the kind of info I was after. I sincerely apologize if I have offended you or any other "tube rats." Honestly, no disrespect intended. Again, as I already humbly admitted, I really don't know jack about the details of the NFO community. I guess if I offended you, then your tone is appropriate. Regadless of that, thanks anyways for the valuable gouge. Honestly. Thank you. You've opened my eyes a little.
But about this: "Nope, you don't need them since you are going to ask to be switched to SWO. Tell your friend to ask questions here - I'll answer them if he shows respect for the NFO community." Well, yes, actually I do still desire specific information. Again, I'm sorry for not showing the appropriate respect for your community--I didn't mean to offend--but these details are still a big part of what I'm trying to get out of this. And remember, I said that I am already NFO option, meaning that at this point, SWO is not in the cards for me. I still don't want that anyways. Oh, and J.T. won't post on here. He has a strange aversion to computers, or, more specifically, the internet. The only thing he uses it for is e-mail, porn, and the requisite NROTC/STA-21 crap.

 

[A4sForever]

Can I pipe in here?

Well said, "ROAD"; the best commentary I have seen on this thread as it relates to the original question.

BZ

ROGER BALL !!

 

[nfo2b]

Thanks, Road Program, that's the kind of perspective I'm looking for. Definitely some tasty food for thought, and I'll certainly pass it on to J.T.
As for me, I'm still sold on NFO, especially after discovering that my uneducated perspective on the life of a "tube rat" was a bit skewed.
Good stuff.

There was a guy in my API class who was a prior enlisted Nuke and I asked him why he didn't go back to the Nuke world as a SWO. His response: "Are you crazy?!"

Yes, as a former Nuke, my sentiments exactly. Despite apparent perceptions to the contrary, I was never trying to advocate SWO-N over NFO, just trying to get a detailed inside perspective on the latter, for the sake of an undecided soul (J.T.).

 

[HAL Pilot]

Despite apparent perceptions to the contrary, I was never trying to advocate SWO-N over NFO

I never thought you were trying to advocate SWO over NFO. I said with your attitude, you would be better off switching to SWO. I still think so - aren't first impressions a b!tch to overcome? There is a lesson here for you....

 

[nfo2b]

I never thought you were trying to advocate SWO over NFO. I said with your attitude, you would be better off switching to SWO. I still think so - aren't first impressions a b!tch to overcome? There is a lesson here for you....

Okay, fair enough, but let's get something straight--this has nothing to do with attitude. That's like me saying that your aversion to broccoli, because you think it causes warts, is a "bad attitude." That's not attitude, that your dislike for warts opposing your ill-informed knowledge of brocolli. That's all I'm doing here--juxtaposing my obviously ill informed knowledge of P-3/E-2C NFO life with my distaste for boring monotonous work. It's not attitude, man. Give me a break and prove my assumptions wrong, as others here have done. As I stated when I posted this thread, I don't know much about the NFO community other than what I've "heard", and we all know how valuable that kind of knowledge is. So educate me, don't castigate me. And please don't talk to me like I'm some sort of green little airman apprentice b!tch boy. I may be new to Naval Aviation, but I'm certainly not new to the Navy. Is that a fair request? There may be a lesson or two here for you as well...
And as for the first impressions being hard to overcome...they sure are, you pompous, arrogant, oversensitive, windbag.
Just kidding.
Now, back to the topic at hand--can I pretty-please-with-a-cherry-on-top get some nitty gritty gouge on "a day or twenty in the life of an NFO?" to pass on?
Thanks.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

My counterpoints.

As a wise and handsome post-DH (the JO's will say there is no such person), I'll try to answer some of these.

1. Only 20% of sea-going career on a Nuke platform
   So a SWO-N really doesn't go to sea much, is that your point? As an aviator, you can get through a CO tour (~18 years) and only have three sea tours (~8 years). OK, so that is 44%. But in those 8 years, you will probably do 4 deployments and some workups totalling ~2.5 years at sea (14% at sea). The rest of the time, you will be flying at home. Most of us spend more time at sea than that, but we do love to fly off ships.

1. 
   What NFO2B was saying is the a SWO-N will only do about 20% of his total sea going career on a nuke platform (i.e. CVN, since we don't have nuke cruisers anymore), not that a SWO-N only goes to sea for 20% of his entire career. The rest of his sea tours will be in traditional SWO billets on traditional SWO platforms.
   
   

   [*]Variety of sea-duty (i.e. first sea tour can be ANYTHING, not just CVN
   Aviation choices: P-3 land based, TACAIR CV, TACAIR Expeditionary (EA-6B), HS (CV), HSL (small boys), HC (supply ships or USNS ships). Is this an all inclusive list, probably not. Point is that there is a variety.

   Apples and oranges here. SWO's don't pick a ship type and stay with that type throughout their career. Every tour is typically different from the last (both in billet and platform). Are you saying that a P-3 NFO can do his first fleet tour and then do a tour in an EA-6B squadron for his second, and then another one for his third, etc? That is what he meant by "variety."
   
   

   [*]Large variety of shore-duty assignments
   Places that I know JO's have gone to after their first tour:
   RAG instructor
   VT instructor
   Pentagon
   Navy Warfare Development Command (Newport)
   PG School
   Academy instructor
   Tactical Training Group Pacific (Pt Loma, very nice location)
   Office of Naval Intelligence
   NSAWC (Fallon)
   NSWAC det at Nellis (all I know about this job is that some of the stuff is super classified)
   Exchange tour with Luftwaffe
   MISC (Missile Intelligence, Huntsville Alabama)
   ROTC instructor
   Flag aide
   
   I know of even more exotic places that O-4's have gone to (usually overseas).

   I think any of the URL's have a wide variety when it comes to shore duty. SWO's even have billets at Fallon too.
   
   

   [*]Early promotion to O-4 (SWO-N's spot promote to LCDR upon billeting to PA in about 9 yrs)
   OK, normal promotion is 10 years.

   True
   
   

   [*]Driving ships--whether you care to admit it or not, this IS cool!
   Aviators get to qualify CDO on the carrier when doing disassociated tours. Flying is also cool. Just ask a Whidbey guy about doing the VR1350/1355 combo. 1+30 hop with 1+20 of it at 500 feet, 420 knots down the Columbia River (actually down in it) and back up the spine of the Cascades (where the roadways on the mountainside are above the jet ).

   Did you mean OOD (u/w)? CDO (u/w) on the carrier I was on was stood only by the O-5 types.
   
   

   [*]EXTREMELY valuable experience for the outside job market.
   Your flying skills are just one block on your fitrep. You are a Naval Officer first and that is what companies are looking for. Leadership, management skills, time management skills, ability to organize and plan, etc. Unless of course you would rather work at 3 Mile Island or United Airlines, but those are technical jobs, not leadership jobs.

   Agree, naval officer first.
   
   

   [*]More leadership experience (i.e. SWO-N's spend more time managing divisions and sailors than aviators, who spend much of their "officer" time flying.
   Yeah, I flew two or three times a week, about a 6 hour evolution per. I then spent another 40 hours a week or so leading my sailors and managing my department. Same as above, flying is one block on the fitrep. Being a good Naval Officer is your number one job. Your technical skill is flying or operating a nuke plant. And don't forget the 4 hours on, 16 hours off duty schedule that you will live every day as a SWO. Lots of time left for leadership there.

   Keyword there being "department." How much time did you spend doing these things as an ENS, JG, or LT? Actually, let me rephrase. How much time does the average aviator ENS, JG, or LT spend on this?
   
   

   [*]Very little possibility of getting attrited from your training pipeline and dismissed from the Navy (unlike the current aviation pipeline situation--20% attrition? Ouch.)
   Does that mean everyone makes it through the SWO pipeline? Anything worthwhile is hard to get. Wings of gold are hard to get.

He's talking about the nuclear training pipeline. This is seperate from the SWO qual process.

As for riding in the tube watching a screen. NFO's in the EA-6B and E-2 communities are commonly mission commanders. We run the show. An E-2 for command and control and a Prowler for SEAD are generally strike requirements. I have twenty strikers dependent on my ability to shut down an enemy's eyes long enough for them to put steel on target.

Got to know and stood a lot of watch with some EA-6B NFO's. Great guys who loved their job. I gained a lot of insight into what they do up there.

Obviously, this is an aviation board and we enjoy what we do. If you want to check out real SWO mentality, try www.sailorbob.com .

Yep, that is a good SWO site. However, the original poster was asking for aviators' perspectives on the perceived advantages/disadvantages of being an NFO since he himself doesn't have the experience to give his friend objective information. This post was not for him as many of the replys to the post have implied.

 

[SteveG75]

Steve, good points. I was under the impression that his friend was trying to tell him how great SWO was compared to NFO.

It is obviously hard to read all the subtle details sometimes.

Let's see if I can anwesr some issues you raised:

20% of time for SWO-N is on a nuke. Sorry, doesn't make much sense to me. Like training an ECMO and only giving him one tour in Prowlers.

Variety. There are transition boards but you are right, we don't arbitrarily change platforms. Does that constant change make better officers? Tha is debatable. After all, like you acknowledged, your technical training (ship driving, aviating, diving, etc) is one block in the fitrep.

Time with the troops. I was a department head so I said department. I had an ENS who spent more time at work than me and JO's who were division officers, personnel officers, etc who spent just as much time leading as a SWO JO. The original post sounded like a typical non-aviator view of an aviator's day.

Attrition. I don't know what the SWO-N pipeline is. Is there little chance for attrition there?


The impression that I got was that the original post was going NFO and his friend was going SWO or SWO-N. They were both prior enlisted. His friend was talking smack about NFO's and he wanted to know what we thought about those points that his friend had.

Update: 24 hours to reply due to the site not being accessible. :icon_rage

 

[Steve Wilkins]

You have to remember though that throughout their careers, SWO's are preparing for command at sea. Straight stick SWO's will do 2 divo tours and 2 DH tours, all on conventional steam, gas turbine, or diesel platform, before they are up for their XO tour. SWO-N's will do their first divo tour on conventional platform, then go through the nuclear power pipeline before reporting for their second divo tour, which is on a carrier. For their DH tours, SWO-N's will do a tour on conventional platform and then back to the carrier for the PA (principal assistant) tour. If selected, they'll do their XO and CO tours on conventional platforms. By doing this back and forth type dance, they fulfill their needed role down in the nuke plant, but also get the other experience needed for their XO and CO tours. One thing to note is that SWO-N's will not do a Cheng tour or be in Engineering on a conventional platform. For those tours, they're given topside billets in Ops, Weapons, or Combat Systems.

 

[nfo2b]

20% of time for SWO-N is on a nuke. Sorry, doesn't make much sense to me. Like training an ECMO and only giving him one tour in Prowlers.

I agree here. Doesn't make alot of sense to me either. Even if Steve W. is right, and it's all about the XO/CO preparation, 20% is still low. But that's the way it is, and that's not a bad thing (if you're a nuke!)

...Does that constant change make better officers? Tha is debatable.

That's not what the "variety" point was about. It was just about that--VARIETY. Some people, like my friend, thrive on change. Various billet types (i.e. WEPS, Ops, Comms, etc.) is what SWO's can get, and that is one thing that J.T. likes about SWO.

Time with the troops. I was a department head so I said department. I had an ENS who spent more time at work than me and JO's who were division officers, personnel officers, etc who spent just as much time leading as a SWO JO. The original post sounded like a typical non-aviator view of an aviator's day.

Well, yes and no. Part of what I said here is coming from "a typical non-aviator view of an aviator's day" and part of it is coming from the voices of a couple of my fellow airdale OC's here at the unit. They said that they rarely interacted with their Div-O's because they were either flying or playing golf (and I'm not slamming this--just relaying their experiences). However, I'm smart enough to know that this has everything to do with what kind of JO you want to be. I've been enlisted for over 12 years now, so I want to be the kind of officer who is always in touch with his sailors, looking out for them, providing them with what they need/want to get the job done, and interacting with them regularly. So that's what I plan on doing. It just seems to me, from what I've heard from enlisted airdales, that this level of deckplate interaction isn't the norm in many squadrons. Could be wrong, so if I am, let me know. I believe you about your experience you just wrote, but you may be an anomaly. Doesn't matter. My point is that if a SWO doesn't have this kind of regular deckplate-level interaction, then his performance as a Div-O, and that of his Division will almost certainly suffer badly. I've seen it. I've lived it. That's just the way it is.

Attrition. I don't know what the SWO-N pipeline is. Is there little chance for attrition there?

The "pipeline" is nukese for the year of in-depth nuke schooling/training (1.5 yrs for enlisted) that a JO gets before going to his first nuke billet. One year may sound short, especially for you guys, who spend nearly 1.5yrs in flight school, but trust me, it's INTENSE. Even the enlisted pipeline is tough. So there is a decent attrition rate, but for a former enlisted nuke (like J.T.), there's very little chance for attrition. And I'd like to make one more comment about your response to this one above--yes, anything worth getting is worth working hard for, but I don't want to get 6 months into flight school, and have the aviation community, who already seems to be looking for reasons to filter as many SNFO's and SNA's as they can, say to me, "Sorry ENS Nfo2b, we've decided that your kerataconus isn't acceptable anymore, here's your pink slip, and have a nice day." I've been in way too long to risk ending my Naval career before I plan to. This is my biggest concern about going NFO.

The impression that I got was that the original post was going NFO and his friend was going SWO or SWO-N. They were both prior enlisted. His friend was talking smack about NFO's and he wanted to know what we thought about those points that his friend had.

I apologize if I didn't make myself clear. This post was not about a future SWO slamming the aviation community, it was about an undecided future officer trying to gain some useful information about a community that niether he nor his friend (me) know very little about. The points I listed about SWO advantages were posted solely for the purpose of extracting comparable advantages of going NFO, not for the sake of purporting SWO to be any better than NFO in any way. Like I said, we both know what to expect from SWO, but not from NFO. That's all that this post is about.
Besides, I'm already locked in to NFO, and happy about it.

Update: 24 hours to reply due to the site not being accessible. :icon_rage

Yeah, what's been going on here? Major server issues, I guess. Time for a new webhost, Steve W.
Oh, and Steve W., thanks for being understanding and helping me clear some things up here. I don't always present things in ways that get my point across the way I intend.

 

[USN99]

This is way too much thought

Did my Midn 1/C cruise on a nuclear cruiser, in a combat zone; and my running mate on cruise was the Reactor Lab Div. Off. Driving ships was terrific; nuke work seemed tolerable if driving ships in a war zone was part of the picture. But I eventually realized that that war would eventually end (it did) and being on a ship in peacetime would get pretty boring.

Several aviation tours later (NFO), I'm glad I got that SWO stuff out of my mind.

Tell your friend to just do what he feels like doing. If he does that, every day starts out good and a few go bad. If not, every day starts out bad and a few get better.