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SWO vs. NFO
- Thread starter scd_84
- Start date
gotcha. i understand now. i guess for enlisted rates, not everyone promotes at the same rate. i thought he was talking about people who are doing STA-21. LOL
Layzee101
Final Select SWO
i was just teasing you though.did you follow my link? the answer to your question about the VIP code is there
Yeah I did, it worked. I tried for a few minutes making up 2 numbers but gave up and posted my question here about it. Thanks for the post.
vulcanx
Banned
hey layz! even i knew to do a search on AirWarriors when i went to register on SB
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showpost.php?p=344698&postcount=8
and there are definitely a few midshipmen that post there, like one that just started posting here, vulcanx.
i regged here before there
i like SB a lot though and they have made me think about swoing it up.
i've always thought i wanted to be a pilot, but i've never been passionate about it like my buddies here who already have their private pilot licenses and put plane pictures all over their room.
anyway, sup mids
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142921
This thread that I started awhile back provided me with the answers I sought.
szd_84, the OP, stated in his opening post that:
"I was thinking that SWO sounded like something that I could actually enjoy. However, after hearing from many people and forums...that couldn't be further from the truth."
First off -I apologize for the length of my response post. I believe however that the thread is complex in nature and is worthy of a fairly in depth discussion so please bear with me.
There is one thing that throughout your life that will surely have an effect on your viewpoint and that is "your personal perspective". It has more to do with your post tense personal experiences(views) than any other external factor. I'm not trying to come off a shrink but one's attitude CAN absolutley make a certain experience either unpleasant or bearable, not a guarantee but about 90% in my book.
Why do SWO's have "generally unpleasant" experiences/comments to share about their 1st shipboard tour? Too many possible reasons to list here. Could be personal hangups, folks not adjusted to zero days off during a month or two period at sea or simply poor leadership at the CO/XO level which flows downhill so very quickly. However I submit the following concept to mull over. The SWO community is comprised of basically two types of people. "Tools" who got to their command levels via fitrep authors who felt some kind of twisted bond between themselves and the person being reported on. In other words -when the scuttlebutt came full circle that they were asswh___s, the fitrep authors somehow related to them, ignored the sailors opinion and make sure the fitreps of their selected tool-minions reflected that they were superstars. And the ones who never made it past O-5? Say during their XO/CO tours on small boats (less than 500 feet) did a great job with their subordinates (both O and E), had no problem publically sharing that they enjoyed serving with them, yet somehow they never made O-6? hmmm. How was that fair? It's not fair. Reality is that 10 to 15 years ago the "tools" reigned and the SWO community somehow survived. You future JO's have the ability to change this. Unfortunately this sitaution can appear to be two very diffent Navy's to our ENS/JG's who really don't have a solid understanding about what SWO is all about. Take a guess as to what the result of a bad deal can be: A JO who posts about his/her experiences in a negative light.
I submit to you, the Navy needs more airwarrior type folks who for whatever reason end up as SWO's. Yes- they often asked previously answered questions about the same old stuff. But the folks who resond to these old questions are the ones who show legitimate interest in the profession and the young prospects. i.e. the ones that care about thier affect on others and the mission. If they didn't care, they'd be out at the Black Angus in San Juan PR negotiating the cost of an interpersonal experience vs. spending their time here trying to offer good advise to the less disillusioned folks. (Yeah I know- Don't rub it in. I used to go to the Angus- "Occasionally)
SWO doesn't have to necessarily be that bad of a gig. YOU and your attitude will make the difference in the fleet. You think I'm loco in de cabeza? Come back to this forum or any future SWO forum in 20 years and see if the story has changed.. I submit to you that it will. The people here generally aren't so tainted with ill-preconcieved SWO concepts. I also think the Navy Brass much like McCain, now sees the light! Let's make the Navy O Career fun again!
CAMike
"I was thinking that SWO sounded like something that I could actually enjoy. However, after hearing from many people and forums...that couldn't be further from the truth."
First off -I apologize for the length of my response post. I believe however that the thread is complex in nature and is worthy of a fairly in depth discussion so please bear with me.
There is one thing that throughout your life that will surely have an effect on your viewpoint and that is "your personal perspective". It has more to do with your post tense personal experiences(views) than any other external factor. I'm not trying to come off a shrink but one's attitude CAN absolutley make a certain experience either unpleasant or bearable, not a guarantee but about 90% in my book.
Why do SWO's have "generally unpleasant" experiences/comments to share about their 1st shipboard tour? Too many possible reasons to list here. Could be personal hangups, folks not adjusted to zero days off during a month or two period at sea or simply poor leadership at the CO/XO level which flows downhill so very quickly. However I submit the following concept to mull over. The SWO community is comprised of basically two types of people. "Tools" who got to their command levels via fitrep authors who felt some kind of twisted bond between themselves and the person being reported on. In other words -when the scuttlebutt came full circle that they were asswh___s, the fitrep authors somehow related to them, ignored the sailors opinion and make sure the fitreps of their selected tool-minions reflected that they were superstars. And the ones who never made it past O-5? Say during their XO/CO tours on small boats (less than 500 feet) did a great job with their subordinates (both O and E), had no problem publically sharing that they enjoyed serving with them, yet somehow they never made O-6? hmmm. How was that fair? It's not fair. Reality is that 10 to 15 years ago the "tools" reigned and the SWO community somehow survived. You future JO's have the ability to change this. Unfortunately this sitaution can appear to be two very diffent Navy's to our ENS/JG's who really don't have a solid understanding about what SWO is all about. Take a guess as to what the result of a bad deal can be: A JO who posts about his/her experiences in a negative light.
I submit to you, the Navy needs more airwarrior type folks who for whatever reason end up as SWO's. Yes- they often asked previously answered questions about the same old stuff. But the folks who resond to these old questions are the ones who show legitimate interest in the profession and the young prospects. i.e. the ones that care about thier affect on others and the mission. If they didn't care, they'd be out at the Black Angus in San Juan PR negotiating the cost of an interpersonal experience vs. spending their time here trying to offer good advise to the less disillusioned folks. (Yeah I know- Don't rub it in. I used to go to the Angus- "Occasionally)
SWO doesn't have to necessarily be that bad of a gig. YOU and your attitude will make the difference in the fleet. You think I'm loco in de cabeza? Come back to this forum or any future SWO forum in 20 years and see if the story has changed.. I submit to you that it will. The people here generally aren't so tainted with ill-preconcieved SWO concepts. I also think the Navy Brass much like McCain, now sees the light! Let's make the Navy O Career fun again!
CAMike
BullGator
Active Member
CAMike, good read man.
MODs, if this is not allowed, please delete my post or let me know and I will do so. I am only trying to help, and thought the following was a good source of candid detail.
This is a post off of the USNavyOCS SWO forum, from "General SWO Gouge," curtosy of "parisj1:"
http://www.usnavyocs.com/portal/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4605
"You will ALWAYS hear negative feedback about SWO's. It really depends on what you want out of your time in the Navy. If you want to be an aviator or a Supply Officer, that's great... we need them, of course, but their quality of life differs from folks like SWO's, Sub Nukes and the like (with some exceptions, like JO Chops who serve on Surface ships or subs). As a SWO, you will be thrown into the mix right away... no schools to fill your head and your time... you are expected to lead and to drive and fight your ship from the very start. Of course, there will be people there to help you, guide you, and teach you what you need to know, but it truly is the most on-the-job training you will receive in any of the Navy's communities. The learning curve is incredibly steep. You are expected to know a lot in a short amount of time... That shouldn't scare anyone away, though. We are the heart of the Navy... most other communities support or work in concert with the Surface Navy in some way, simply because of the nature of our business... therefore, you'll get to see and do a lot.
Some of the negatives that you'll hear about... Being at sea a lot; yes, it's true... SWO's, people who drive and fight ships go out to sea a great deal... shocker! If that's a negative, then don't go for it. We don't sleep a lot; that's also true... that's just the nature of our lives... you're either on watch or you're working or you're studying or you're doing some other task... you learn to deal with it! You will be amazed at how little you really need sleep to function in a stressful and potentially dangerous environment. SWO's are fiercely competitive (you'll hear the term "backstabbers")... true to an extent. Some are, most are not. A lot of people joke about SWO's stabbing each other in the back... it's a common misconception, simply because we have so much to get done in such a short time... sometimes you have to look out for number one, but in nearly every case, the tight bond and unbreakable comradere you foster with your shipmates is your guiding light.
So that's the pitch... It's hard. Very hard. It's also worth it. If you want to lead, go SWO. All communities have their place in the Navy's grand scheme and none of us could truly function without eachother, but you just really have to decide what you want.
Here's some info about our basic professional path; I'll speak in generalties first... A SWO's first Division Officer tour is 27-months long and can be on one of these classes of ship: DDG, CG, FFG, LHD, LHA, LPD, LSD, and Mine Sweeps. You can't go to a carrier for your first tour and you can't go to a Coastal Patrol Craft for your first tour. During this 27-month tour, you will have at least one division... some ships rotate their Divos during their first tour, so you may spend time in multiple divisions during that 27-months (some of that time may be spent in various job-related schools, as well).
After this you'll move to your second Division Officer tour, which will be 18-months long. This time you can go to any class of ship that we have, and you'll be going to your ship for a specific job (which you may need to attend more school for, and which you'll spend your entire tour doing).
After your second Division Officer tour, you will roll to your shore tour... You can pretty much do anything on your shore tour, including earning your graduate degree (which many do). This period will come up during the end of your obligated service, so you may be getting out of the Navy from your shore tour... if you decide to stay in, you'll have a greater variety of shore tours to choose from, as many of them come with a required committment time. If you want the Navy to pay for school, you'll be staying in longer. If you want to continue on as a Department Head and the Navy wants you, you'll receive a pretty nice bonus (currently $75K), and after your ~3 years of shore duty, you will report to Department Head School and then afterwards, to another ship (or two) serving as a Department Head for another 3-4 years. Then you're back on shore duty and the story goes on...
There are small exceptions here and there to the progression of a SWO's professional life... Your time aboard a certain ship may be extended or shortened based on the needs of the Navy or the upcoming requirements of your next tour... so those tour lengths I quoted you earlier might be different for you. Also, there are "non-traditional" tours that SWO's may take during their progression... for example, traditionally you will spend your Division Officer tours on one of our "normal" ships (the amphibs, a DDG, CG, or FFG), but you may find that you will be competitive for jobs like the new Riverine Units, or as a LTJG Department Head on a Coastal Patrol Craft, or maybe even as an XO of one of our Naval Coastal Warfare Units... finally, you may find yourself either volunteering for or being ordered (VOLUN-TOLD) into an Individual Augmentee (IA) billet, which will put you on the ground with the Marines or the Army in Afghanistan or Iraq. These non-traditional routes will continue as you become more senior.
So... there's some good info for you. Don't be turned off by the whole, "it sucks but it's worth it" routine. You really won't understand until you do it, and you really won't earn the right to b**** until you've been to sea for a while and have a little salt on your shoulders. Complaining is one of our stress relievers... it's a stressful community, not for the faint of heart or mind. If you like to sleep, then don't go this route. If you do, you will be amazed by the stuff that you can accomplish and the wide spectrum of naval warfare that you will master."
This is IRT "down-time" on board ship as a JO SWO and the timing of promotions (which are the same across the board) and qualifications.
Down time... I'm not going to lie and say that you never get to play xbox or watch a part of a movie... if your ship is, say, trasitting across one of the oceans with nothing much going on, then you're work load outside of standing watch may be relatively light. Still, I've never once watched a complete movie at sea, and my video game playing has been extremely limited. To be honest, and it depends on the ship, but generally before you get your pin, you're sort of considered a probationary, and are supposed to dedicate most, if not all, of your free time to working on your various qualifications... standing extra watches, touring spaces with the technical experts, studying publications, and working on your division officer at sea assignments.
Promotions are set in stone for junior officers... you put on jg at two years and you put on LT at four years. Period. You have 18 months to earn your various qualifications (OOD In-Port, Boat Officer, Helm Safety Officer, Aft-Steering Safety Officer, 3M Division Officer, Advanced Damage Control, External Communications Operator, CIC Watch Officer, Anti-Surface Warfare Coordinator, SWO Engineering, and Officer of the Deck Underway) get to ultimately go up for your SWO board and earn your pin. Once you get your pin, you can relax a little bit and start moving into the role of more of a teacher than a student... time for you to give back all that knowledge you've gained to the guys who are on their way up.
This is IRT whether SWO's specialize in a certain area and if they can partake in non-traditional warfare areas on their ship.
Nope... SWO's are generalists... that's why we're in such high demand for jobs outside of our community and special assignments relating to the War on Terror... many of the Naval Officers that go on Individual Augmentee assignments to Iraq and Afghanistan to work with the Army and Marines are SWO's... we're supposed to be pretty good at a lot of different things and able to handle many tasks at once. That's why the pin (same with the Nuc's Dolphins) is pretty highly regarded; it takes a lot of work to earn it and most importantly, we have to prove ourselves in the fleet before we can earn it, which is unique amongst the other communities.
When you are commissioned as a SWO, you'll get assigned to a ship and once you report to your ship, you'll get assigned a division to lead... you may be in charge of an engineering division or an operations division or a weapons division... just depends. So you'll learn your specific job, as well as all of the other skills that a SWO must possess, like ship driving, seamenship, tactical maritime warfighting, damage control, aviation operations, etc... you name it.
The special areas in naval warfare, like intel, information warfare (cryptology), electronic warfare, etc are handled by specialists... the officers in those fields are either Limited Duty Officers (prior enlisted) or are Restricted Line Officers who are specifically trained for those areas.
AllYouCanEat again: I thought this was a great introduction and first hand lession to those interested in the SWO community. SWO can be difficult (as all designations will be, I'm sure), but worth looking into. I looked into it (for "fun"/knowledge) and I was already sure that I want to be a Naval Aviator.
MODs, if this is not allowed, please delete my post or let me know and I will do so. I am only trying to help, and thought the following was a good source of candid detail.
This is a post off of the USNavyOCS SWO forum, from "General SWO Gouge," curtosy of "parisj1:"
http://www.usnavyocs.com/portal/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4605
"You will ALWAYS hear negative feedback about SWO's. It really depends on what you want out of your time in the Navy. If you want to be an aviator or a Supply Officer, that's great... we need them, of course, but their quality of life differs from folks like SWO's, Sub Nukes and the like (with some exceptions, like JO Chops who serve on Surface ships or subs). As a SWO, you will be thrown into the mix right away... no schools to fill your head and your time... you are expected to lead and to drive and fight your ship from the very start. Of course, there will be people there to help you, guide you, and teach you what you need to know, but it truly is the most on-the-job training you will receive in any of the Navy's communities. The learning curve is incredibly steep. You are expected to know a lot in a short amount of time... That shouldn't scare anyone away, though. We are the heart of the Navy... most other communities support or work in concert with the Surface Navy in some way, simply because of the nature of our business... therefore, you'll get to see and do a lot.
Some of the negatives that you'll hear about... Being at sea a lot; yes, it's true... SWO's, people who drive and fight ships go out to sea a great deal... shocker! If that's a negative, then don't go for it. We don't sleep a lot; that's also true... that's just the nature of our lives... you're either on watch or you're working or you're studying or you're doing some other task... you learn to deal with it! You will be amazed at how little you really need sleep to function in a stressful and potentially dangerous environment. SWO's are fiercely competitive (you'll hear the term "backstabbers")... true to an extent. Some are, most are not. A lot of people joke about SWO's stabbing each other in the back... it's a common misconception, simply because we have so much to get done in such a short time... sometimes you have to look out for number one, but in nearly every case, the tight bond and unbreakable comradere you foster with your shipmates is your guiding light.
So that's the pitch... It's hard. Very hard. It's also worth it. If you want to lead, go SWO. All communities have their place in the Navy's grand scheme and none of us could truly function without eachother, but you just really have to decide what you want.
Here's some info about our basic professional path; I'll speak in generalties first... A SWO's first Division Officer tour is 27-months long and can be on one of these classes of ship: DDG, CG, FFG, LHD, LHA, LPD, LSD, and Mine Sweeps. You can't go to a carrier for your first tour and you can't go to a Coastal Patrol Craft for your first tour. During this 27-month tour, you will have at least one division... some ships rotate their Divos during their first tour, so you may spend time in multiple divisions during that 27-months (some of that time may be spent in various job-related schools, as well).
After this you'll move to your second Division Officer tour, which will be 18-months long. This time you can go to any class of ship that we have, and you'll be going to your ship for a specific job (which you may need to attend more school for, and which you'll spend your entire tour doing).
After your second Division Officer tour, you will roll to your shore tour... You can pretty much do anything on your shore tour, including earning your graduate degree (which many do). This period will come up during the end of your obligated service, so you may be getting out of the Navy from your shore tour... if you decide to stay in, you'll have a greater variety of shore tours to choose from, as many of them come with a required committment time. If you want the Navy to pay for school, you'll be staying in longer. If you want to continue on as a Department Head and the Navy wants you, you'll receive a pretty nice bonus (currently $75K), and after your ~3 years of shore duty, you will report to Department Head School and then afterwards, to another ship (or two) serving as a Department Head for another 3-4 years. Then you're back on shore duty and the story goes on...
There are small exceptions here and there to the progression of a SWO's professional life... Your time aboard a certain ship may be extended or shortened based on the needs of the Navy or the upcoming requirements of your next tour... so those tour lengths I quoted you earlier might be different for you. Also, there are "non-traditional" tours that SWO's may take during their progression... for example, traditionally you will spend your Division Officer tours on one of our "normal" ships (the amphibs, a DDG, CG, or FFG), but you may find that you will be competitive for jobs like the new Riverine Units, or as a LTJG Department Head on a Coastal Patrol Craft, or maybe even as an XO of one of our Naval Coastal Warfare Units... finally, you may find yourself either volunteering for or being ordered (VOLUN-TOLD) into an Individual Augmentee (IA) billet, which will put you on the ground with the Marines or the Army in Afghanistan or Iraq. These non-traditional routes will continue as you become more senior.
So... there's some good info for you. Don't be turned off by the whole, "it sucks but it's worth it" routine. You really won't understand until you do it, and you really won't earn the right to b**** until you've been to sea for a while and have a little salt on your shoulders. Complaining is one of our stress relievers... it's a stressful community, not for the faint of heart or mind. If you like to sleep, then don't go this route. If you do, you will be amazed by the stuff that you can accomplish and the wide spectrum of naval warfare that you will master."
This is IRT "down-time" on board ship as a JO SWO and the timing of promotions (which are the same across the board) and qualifications.
Down time... I'm not going to lie and say that you never get to play xbox or watch a part of a movie... if your ship is, say, trasitting across one of the oceans with nothing much going on, then you're work load outside of standing watch may be relatively light. Still, I've never once watched a complete movie at sea, and my video game playing has been extremely limited. To be honest, and it depends on the ship, but generally before you get your pin, you're sort of considered a probationary, and are supposed to dedicate most, if not all, of your free time to working on your various qualifications... standing extra watches, touring spaces with the technical experts, studying publications, and working on your division officer at sea assignments.
Promotions are set in stone for junior officers... you put on jg at two years and you put on LT at four years. Period. You have 18 months to earn your various qualifications (OOD In-Port, Boat Officer, Helm Safety Officer, Aft-Steering Safety Officer, 3M Division Officer, Advanced Damage Control, External Communications Operator, CIC Watch Officer, Anti-Surface Warfare Coordinator, SWO Engineering, and Officer of the Deck Underway) get to ultimately go up for your SWO board and earn your pin. Once you get your pin, you can relax a little bit and start moving into the role of more of a teacher than a student... time for you to give back all that knowledge you've gained to the guys who are on their way up.
This is IRT whether SWO's specialize in a certain area and if they can partake in non-traditional warfare areas on their ship.
Nope... SWO's are generalists... that's why we're in such high demand for jobs outside of our community and special assignments relating to the War on Terror... many of the Naval Officers that go on Individual Augmentee assignments to Iraq and Afghanistan to work with the Army and Marines are SWO's... we're supposed to be pretty good at a lot of different things and able to handle many tasks at once. That's why the pin (same with the Nuc's Dolphins) is pretty highly regarded; it takes a lot of work to earn it and most importantly, we have to prove ourselves in the fleet before we can earn it, which is unique amongst the other communities.
When you are commissioned as a SWO, you'll get assigned to a ship and once you report to your ship, you'll get assigned a division to lead... you may be in charge of an engineering division or an operations division or a weapons division... just depends. So you'll learn your specific job, as well as all of the other skills that a SWO must possess, like ship driving, seamenship, tactical maritime warfighting, damage control, aviation operations, etc... you name it.
The special areas in naval warfare, like intel, information warfare (cryptology), electronic warfare, etc are handled by specialists... the officers in those fields are either Limited Duty Officers (prior enlisted) or are Restricted Line Officers who are specifically trained for those areas.
AllYouCanEat again: I thought this was a great introduction and first hand lession to those interested in the SWO community. SWO can be difficult (as all designations will be, I'm sure), but worth looking into. I looked into it (for "fun"/knowledge) and I was already sure that I want to be a Naval Aviator.
BullGator
Active Member
Clostriphobia? -Seriously, no clue. Fair question though. One of the few things I haven't looked at was SS Warfare; I just hate red-lighting 12 hrs a day, heh, just kidding.
Nice bonuses.
I've known someone that was a SS guy (enlisted - 18 years total) and he liked it... e.g. I have nothing to contribute on this...
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
The bonuses for nuke are higher than the bonuses for being a conventional SWO, both on the sub and SWO side. Also, submariners get sub pay in addition to sea pay, so we make more during our first tour. However, the bonuses that nuke SWOs get for signing a second 5 year contract are higher and essentially make up for that difference.
Honestly, though, money didn't really factor into my decision to go sub nuke. I went to the recruiter telling him that I wanted to apply for it, and he suddenly started spouting off all this money the Navy was going to throw at me for doing something I wanted to do.
non-nuke SWOs generally don't work on carriers and never attend nuke school. Your career is geared entirely toward command of a ship.
nuke SWOs split their tours between what a non-nuke SWO does and engine room on CVN. In other words, you'll do your first sea tour, get your pin. Then you go to nuke school, and instead of doing your second sea tour on any ship you choose, you'll work in the engine room of a CVN. This dichotomy of jobs continues throughout a SWO/N's entire career. For example, when you screen for XO, you will screen for both XO of a conventional ship, doing normal SWO XO stuff, and you will also screen for XO of the engine room on a CVN.
For submariners, it's the opposite -- you work your way out of the engine room rather than into it. The first thing you do is qualify EOOW, then you move onto other sections, qualify as OOD, and earn your dolphins. Your DH tour might be as the eng, but it might be as the ops or nav officer, in which case you don't do much nuke stuff at all.
Bugsmasher
Another Non-qual SWO Ensign
Among other reasons, I went SWO(N) over Subs because I didn't want to end up on a boomer steaming in 5 knot circles for three months at a time.
vulcanx
Banned
Well, at least you can't tell you're going in circles inside.
I also hear that being trapped in a CVN engineering space is pretty similar to subs anyway in that the sun does not smile on you
Well, at least you can't tell you're going in circles inside.
I also hear that being trapped in a CVN engineering space is pretty similar to subs anyway in that the sun does not smile on you
Also....isn't it hot as hell down there??? No thank you.
vulcanx
Banned
Honest question: do you think SWOs have a wider variety of missions and/or things to do underway such as fighting pirates etc instead of creeping around as a sub? It is hard for me to imagine what a sub's mission is these days. I'm sure there is one, but I'll have to talk more to my sub LT about it when school starts.
Maybe not for 3 months at a time, but even DDGs spend plenty of time steaming around in a "box" at 5 kts.