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T-39 Crash, families sue

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Fmr1833

Shut the F#%k up, dummy!
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I'd check to make sure that is true before passing it on as a fact. Funding for anything to do with aircraft comes from specific accounts that are handled above the wing level and, more importantly, cannot be used for office furniture of any type so that might be an urban legend.

Just quoting what was told to us by the former Commodore in a brief.

As for the lawyer not being a knight in shining armor...you're right, being a former NA/NFO doesn't give him an automatic pass. But to me he at least has some cred vs some ambulance chaser who doesn't have personal experience in our business.

All...not trying to be a dick to anyone, I guess this all just struck a nerve. Sorry if I've been in anyone's face too much.
 
Wow... that's kinda crazy. Its not like you climb into the jet not knowing that there is the possibility of things going wrong. Its a risk we take having signed on to be Aviators/NFOc/WSOs.

For you legalese speakers out there, do the families actually have a case?

Hey,

Based on the information given they do not have a case at the present moment.

A legal question would hinge on whether this was definitely caused by pilot error and from the article it appears they have not determined that conclusively based on what evidence they have gathered so far. Evidence is everything in civil cases. The families suing need a smaller burden of proof (preponderance of the evidence "51%") than if this were a criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt).

IMO they have questions worth further investigation but I doubt anything will come of it. Families sometimes do this as part of the grieving process, sharp attorneys come along and only make the situation worse. Though, I doubt the lawyer's intentions are dishonorable.

This is a tragic loss all the way around, prayers for all involved.

Regards
 

FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
If I were a betting man, I would say that this one would be settled out of court so as to avoid any precedent and to save money.
 
Isn't a criminal case's burden of proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt"? And I thought civil cases were "beyond a reasonable doubt" (clear and convincing cause), while "preponderance of the evidence" is what is needed to go to trial. I am not a lawyer and I don't even play one on TV, so this is a genuine question. Am I mistaken?

Hello villanelle,

'Beyond a shadow of a doubt' is a more dramatic way of stating the burden of proof in a criminal case "beyond a reasonable doubt," they are the same. For a party to be found "guilty" proof must be so convincing that the only remaining doubts are fantastic or unreasonable.

The burden is different in tort (civil law). There, you need only establish that based upon the evidence it is more than probably true than untrue, this is sometimes called "51%" as a result. If you as a party bringing suit (the person suing) can meet that burden then the other party is found "liable" as opposed to "guilty."

Your confusion arises from what is called a "Grand Jury." That is a type of jury that decides whether there is enough evidence for there to be a criminal trial. I do not know what burden of proof is needed to pass through a grand jury, I would imagine it is the preponderance of evidence - but that is criminal law and I am not experienced with it.
 
How do you not see a Res Ipsa Loquitur argument for the plaintiffs here?

Hello BigIron

The argument is certainly available to the plaintiffs.

I see it mitigated by the fact this is about pilot error. It does not follow that because bad stuff happened, the pilot erred in his professional responsibilities. As I understand it for aviation, like with legal or medical malpractice, there is the complicated matter of attempting to prove that the person deemed responsible did something unusually irresponsible that nobody else in his position would have done.

In this instance we do not yet know what his position was, that's not really been determined. The Navy investigators intimated there might have been a bird or some or reason to fly low in which case his actions might have been consistent with the actions of any pilot in his position.

Arguing Res Ipsa right now would be in my mind a little like suing a doctor for malpractice because the doctor administered a drug that the patient was allergic to and the doctor took no steps to find out the patients allergies. Come to find, down the road, that the patient spoke only Spanish and was a gunshot wound victim in the emergency room. That provides an alternate reason than "it speaks for itself" which also happens to exculpate the doctor of any professional mistake.

There is a Res Ipsa argument here but I don't see it as particularly solid ground in light of the Navy investigation which appears (at present) inconclusive. Res Ipsa Loquitur is as much a legal argument as it is a logical fallacy, until they do more discovery I don't think they will have a viable case.

A really strong Res Ipsa argument here would be if they uncovered evidence the pilot was very inexperienced or recently had a medical problem that severely impeded his ability to fly. In that circumstance we could still not definitively say what happened in the cockpit, but the Res Ipsa argument would provide the crucial missing key: a negligent reason the pilot flew low.
 

FLYTPAY

Pro-Rec Fighter Pilot
pilot
None
In this instance we do not yet know what his position was, that's not really been determined. The Navy investigators intimated there might have been a bird or some or reason to fly low in which case his actions might have been consistent with the actions of any pilot in his position.
Wrong. The Pilot in Command is responsible for the safety of the flight. A pilot's best judgement needs to be made so as to avoid obstacles and hazards. This is not an easy thing at all times. We do however have something called Mission Cross-check times, the time you can have your head down doing things that are not related to obstacle/wingman clearance. If I am flying along and violate my mission cross-check time in mountainous terrain, and there is an accident, I am responsible/negligent. I have to keep my discussion of this one to that because of knowledge of the flight.
 
Wrong. The Pilot in Command is responsible for the safety of the flight. A pilot's best judgement needs to be made so as to avoid obstacles and hazards. This is not an easy thing at all times. We do however have something called Mission Cross-check times, the time you can have your head down doing things that are not related to obstacle/wingman clearance. If I am flying along and violate my mission cross-check time in mountainous terrain, and there is an accident, I am responsible/negligent. I have to keep my discussion of this one to that because of knowledge of the flight.

If I understand you correctly (and I'm not saying I do) then I think we are talking about two different things.

My point was that we do not know the circumstances of his decision, not that there are certain times pilots are not responsible for safety. It may be that his decision to fly low was necessitated by another flight risk, or it may be that he made a bad judgment. The information from the article did not conclusively determine his reason for flying so dangerously low and his reason for flying low is an important fact in determining whether his actions resulted in liability on his part.

If for example he flew a little lower to avoid a collision of some sort (and it appears the Navy speculated this) he might not be liable and his company might not be liable.
 
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