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NEWS Tesla Autopilot and similar automated driving systems get poor rating from prominent safety group

ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
If you have more than a functional interest in this topic I would encourage you to listen to the latest Tesla earnings call which just dropped - fascinating and the vision and execution is just majestic despite the tepid response of late of the American Consumer.

I'm even more convinced that the act of paying attention, controlling a a steering wheel, brake and accelerator is at best a plebian activity that need to die. And the traditionalists who run Ford, GM and Toyota just don't get it. Tesla is very much about improving society and efficiency in life - well beyond the junior varsity work of emissions.

Looking forward to what's to come.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
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IKE

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
ChuckMK23 said:
If you have more than a functional interest in this topic I would encourage you to listen to the latest Tesla earnings call which just dropped - fascinating and the vision and execution is just majestic despite the tepid response of late of the American Consumer.

I'm even more convinced that the act of paying attention, controlling a a steering wheel, brake and accelerator is at best a plebian activity that need to die. And the traditionalists who run Ford, GM and Toyota just don't get it. Tesla is very much about improving society and efficiency in life - well beyond the junior varsity work of emissions.

Looking forward to what's to come.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
Click to expand...
OMG. Here you go, Chuck ... in case you run out
1000013019.jpg
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot
ChuckMK23 said:
Looking forward to what's to come.
Click to expand...

All the joys of life being replaced with rules and corporate subscriptions?

Here’s the thing. I actually enjoy driving. The personal agency that comes with mastering the skill of controlling your own vehicle is hardly “plebian”. But Elon has a vested interest in convincing you it is, so you’ll be a slave to his system. This is part of a broader trend of laziness across our society that has been eating away at our freedoms for quite some time.

No thanks.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
Now for off road driving - and "over land" exploring - the new G-Wagon EV hits the spot! The Teutonic vibe is amazing!

 
gparks1989

gparks1989

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
If you have more than a functional interest in this topic I would encourage you to listen to the latest Tesla earnings call which just dropped - fascinating and the vision and execution is just majestic despite the tepid response of late of the American Consumer.

I'm even more convinced that the act of paying attention, controlling a a steering wheel, brake and accelerator is at best a plebian activity that need to die. And the traditionalists who run Ford, GM and Toyota just don't get it. Tesla is very much about improving society and efficiency in life - well beyond the junior varsity work of emissions.

Looking forward to what's to come.
Click to expand...
I'll be the first to say that Musk lit a fire under the entire vehicle manufacturing industry - foreign and domestic - and may very well be responsible for a large shift to EVs. All that said, the company is resting on its laurels and recent financial performance is indicative of that. Plus, the other manufacturers are making really, really good EVs. And they include features such as high safety ratings and Apple Carplay (Tesla, or any other manufacturer's proprietary head unit software sucks compared to Android or Apple Carplay). Plus, the seats on my Y are quite literally falling apart after three years of really minimal use and the cameras/cruise control work about 50% of the time....

Methinks you're overstating the case a bit.
 
gparks1989

gparks1989

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Hair Warrior said:
EVs are a novelty and won’t become environmentally sustainable unless technology drastically changes. Either the power grid, the vehicle power source/ battery composition, or the way the raw materials are mined and refined.
Click to expand...

Strong disagree on the first part, and the second part needs economies of scale. For people who live in single-family homes with garages (or driveways) and drive the average amount per year (14000 miles) EVs work very well. That is not a small minority. The delta between EV and ICE/Hybrid costs isn't as massive as it once was, even excluding tax benefits.

The grid issue is, from what I've read, overstated. The grid has problems anyway, and you can design smart charging systems that meter energy demand. Mining is energy-intensive and often occurs in less-than-savory geopolitical locations. But the raw materials can be recycled and new sources of lithium etc. are being discovered daily (most recently in Wyoming).
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot
gparks1989 said:
Strong disagree on the first part, and the second part needs economies of scale. For people who live in single-family homes with garages (or driveways) and drive the average amount per year (14000 miles) EVs work very well. That is not a small minority. The delta between EV and ICE/Hybrid costs isn't as massive as it once was, even excluding tax benefits.

The grid issue is, from what I've read, overstated. The grid has problems anyway, and you can design smart charging systems that meter energy demand. Mining is energy-intensive and often occurs in less-than-savory geopolitical locations. But the raw materials can be recycled and new sources of lithium etc. are being discovered daily (most recently in Wyoming).
Click to expand...

The material production cycle needs to be closed for "economies of scale" to work, or we'll be strip mining even more of the planet for a constant supply of lithium- trading one environmental insult for another. As far as I know, lithium batteries cannot be economically recycled, and that's a problem. Whether through a viable recycling method or an entirely new battery technology, the ability to reduce the up-front environmental toll of EVs would be a major win for the space. The second space to explore would be in lengthening product cycles, but it's hard to imagine that happening in our current "The Street is King" business mindset. Tesla seems all-in on lithium mining, and certainly on planned obsolescence (plenty of evidence in this thread) so I am not convinced they have anything other than profitability in mind- most notably at the expense of the same environment they claim to support. Sounds a lot like, oh, I dunno, oil companies, perhaps? With 8 billion people on the planet, that's going to cause problems.

BLUF: Outsourcing your pollution to Kurzblackistan (or, Iraq, or Arizona) doesn't make you forward-thinking. It just makes you an asshole. I'm looking at you, CA.

As for the grid, the issue isn't necessarily capacity- it's insufficient storage and politics blocking some of the most intelligent sources of power for the base load (e.g. nuclear). Finally, smart chargers are cool, but how does that help me when I have a time-critical appointment across town? The challenges of EVs will continue to be power density, charging times, and material impact.

However, for some applications, EVs are great. I have an electric mower that's awesome. Quiet, simple, clean, and efficient. Since I only use it once a week during the warm seasons, and it has 2x the capacity needed to mow my lawn, charging time and power density are not problems.
 
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N

number9

Well-Known Member
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
If you have more than a functional interest in this topic I would encourage you to listen to the latest Tesla earnings call which just dropped - fascinating and the vision and execution is just majestic despite the tepid response of late of the American Consumer.

I'm even more convinced that the act of paying attention, controlling a a steering wheel, brake and accelerator is at best a plebian activity that need to die. And the traditionalists who run Ford, GM and Toyota just don't get it. Tesla is very much about improving society and efficiency in life - well beyond the junior varsity work of emissions.

Looking forward to what's to come.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
Click to expand...
Even if you ignore the Cybertruck recall debacle, I would not call any of Tesla's execution "majestic".
 
Hair Warrior

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
sevenhelmet said:
The material production cycle needs to be closed for "economies of scale" to work, or we'll be strip mining even more of the planet for a constant supply of lithium- trading one environmental insult for another. As far as I know, lithium batteries cannot be economically recycled, and that's a problem. Whether through a viable recycling method or an entirely new battery technology, the ability to reduce the up-front environmental toll of EVs would be a major win for the space. The second space to explore would be in lengthening product cycles, but it's hard to imagine that happening in our current "The Street is King" business mindset. Tesla seems all-in on lithium mining, and certainly on planned obsolescence (plenty of evidence in this thread) so I am not convinced they have anything other than profitability in mind- most notably at the expense of the same environment they claim to support. Sounds a lot like, oh, I dunno, oil companies, perhaps? With 8 billion people on the planet, that's going to cause problems.

BLUF: Outsourcing your pollution to Kurzblackistan (or, Iraq, or Arizona) doesn't make you forward-thinking. It just makes you an asshole. I'm looking at you, CA.

As for the grid, the issue isn't necessarily capacity- it's insufficient storage and politics blocking some of the most intelligent sources of power for the base load (e.g. nuclear). Finally, smart chargers are cool, but how does that help me when I have a time-critical appointment across town? The challenges of EVs will continue to be power density, charging times, and material impact.

However, for some applications, EVs are great. I have an electric mower that's awesome. Quiet, simple, clean, and efficient. Since I only use it once a week during the warm seasons, and it has 2x the capacity needed to mow my lawn, charging time and power density are not problems.
Click to expand...
Shack

Don’t forget disposal at the vehicle’s end of life. Huge environmental concern almost nobody is talking about.

Also, have you seen how much water it takes to extonguish a Tesla fire? Huge safety and environmental and feasibility concern there, too. Fire depts aren’t equipped to handle car fires if >50% of cars on the road become EVs.

This goes to my “battery composition” comment. I stand by my cateogirzation of EVs as a novelty absent major new technology.
 
Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Hair Warrior said:
Don’t forget disposal at the vehicle’s end of life. Huge environmental concern almost nobody is talking about.
Click to expand...

Lots of ink is being spilled about that subject if you bother to look, and while it is a big and growing concern it can be handled in a safe manner.

Hair Warrior said:
I stand by my cateogirzation of EVs as a novelty absent major new technology.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call 7.6% of US and 25% of Chinese car sales in 2023 to be a 'novelty'.
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot
Hair Warrior said:
Shack

Don’t forget disposal at the vehicle’s end of life. Huge environmental concern almost nobody is talking about.

Also, have you seen how much water it takes to extonguish a Tesla fire? Huge safety and environmental and feasibility concern there, too. Fire depts aren’t equipped to handle car fires if >50% of cars on the road become EVs.

This goes to my “battery composition” comment. I stand by my cateogirzation of EVs as a novelty absent major new technology.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Closing the material cycle would reduce end-of-life concerns, much like recycling used cars made of iron does today. I didn't address crash hazards of lithium-ion batteries either, that's a whole kettle o' fish by itself.

Put me in the "new battery tech needed" camp, for wholesale adoption (and possibly a solution to grid storage too!). All of this is why I drive a diesel. Long product cycle, efficiency, multiple ways to produce fuel (some of which are actually sustainable) and recyclability of the majority of parts at the end. Sold.
 
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