The Air Force needs help winning yesterday's war

[Lawman]

As for being easier to repair, I just remember watching a show on how Russian MiGs could be maintained by a kid with a toolbox in the middle nowhere.

Maybe I'm missing some important information here, so please point me in the right direction. It seems like the Russians always manage to develope a new-age fighter, but do it using very simple technology to keep cost down and make it easy to maintain.

That may have been very true 40+ years ago but evidence as to the contrary would be as easy as taking a look at Germanys Mig-29's as well as the US program to operate Soviet Bloc aircraft at Area 51. While they may be "maintainable" by someone with little to no skill they are certainly not cheaper in the long run. When the Germans originally took over the Fulcrums they found that engine overhauls were needed almost 10 times as often. The Indians as well ran into a lot of problems keeping their Flanker fleet in the air. Theres no such thing as a free lunch in this world. You can either spend the money now or spend the money later.

 

[Mumbles]

What, you don't like the wingtip rails?

I thought those were the smoke generators....like on the blue angle F-22

 

[Son of a Grunt]

Any particular reason?

I had to live with a teenage Russian orphan and her escort for two of the worst months in my life. My dad spent three years and thousands of dollars working with their convoluted socialist system to try and adopt two orphans(failed in the end). He co-found PAFRO(Positive Alternatives For Russian Orphans) and ended up bring one of the orphans to the U.S.. My dad brought the orphan over to have her soft palate fixed. She would cuss(in English) like a sailor and eat what she wanted, when she wanted, and only what she wanted. She would loaf around refusing to exercise. She is a seasoned con-artist, cheat, and thief. She would beat my little siblings when she thought that no one was watching. She and her escort read every one's emails and mail constantly(something about having lived in fear of the KGB). She expected her whims to be met immediately. Some point during her visit she even picked up a Russian writing pen-pal boyfriend who is in jail. She wrote him letters daily. After she left we found some drafts and it turns out that she was sending him written porn. So yes I despise Russia; everything that I have had to go through has been a pain in the butt. I know that not all Russians are bad, but as a nation it is a worthless pile of crap.

P.S. Please support PAFRO, it is trying to pay off a farm that it purchased for an orphanage to grow their own food and income since most of the children are malnourished and have little clothing.

 

[phrogdriver]

^^Interesting story, though not something I'd base geopolitical decisions off of.

This myth of the simple, easy to maintain Soviet equipment is largely a product of US defense critics. Russian gear may be simple to repair, because it needs to be repaired, a lot. Their Soviet-era stuff is absolutely horrendous.

The few "wonder weapons" they came up with were just souped-up old tech, e.g. the MiG-25, which could go Mach 3--once, before needing new engines, or the Alfa sub, which could practically be followed around the ocean with a geiger counter.

Their readiness was kept high only by building butt-tons of something and mothballing the excess and caniballizing as needed.

They had a big success with the AK-47 and everyone worships at the altar of simple and reliable Russian gear--it's a myth. Even the AK has issues--very tough, but pretty inaccurate at any range. There's no free lunch.

 

[invertedflyer]

Just a bit off topic, but why does it seems that Russian jets are cheaper and easier to work on than US jets?

For example, the Su-35 is supposed to be around 35 million USD per unit. This is cheap compared to the cheapest F-35, the A model, at 48 million and the F-22 at around 137 million. To be fair though, the F-15 cost around 29 million a piece.

As for being easier to repair, I just remember watching a show on how Russian MiGs could be maintained by a kid with a toolbox in the middle nowhere.

Maybe I'm missing some important information here, so please point me in the right direction. It seems like the Russians always manage to develope a new-age fighter, but do it using very simple technology to keep cost down and make it easy to maintain.

I think that those numbers are a little bit old. I think the F-35s are in the $80-95 million dollar range, and the F-22s (according to the article) are $350 million per.

A little bit off-subject, but I've always wondered why the Marines never decided to follow the Navy in their acquisition of the Rhino. It seems to me that they could have replaced their legacy hornets with rhinos, an aircraft that has more range and payload capacity... then wait to replace the harrier fleet with F-35s. Anyone have any info?

 

[Mumbles]

I will go ahead and posit that Russia is a country of gangsters and thugs and that they have thrived on duplicity for many many years. May I make you a nice polonium sandwich now??

 

[Lawman]

I think that those numbers are a little bit old. I think the F-35s are in the $80-95 million dollar range, and the F-22s (according to the article) are $350 million per.

A little bit off-subject, but I've always wondered why the Marines never decided to follow the Navy in their acquisition of the Rhino. It seems to me that they could have replaced their legacy hornets with rhinos, an aircraft that has more range and payload capacity... then wait to replace the harrier fleet with F-35s. Anyone have any info?

Numbers are pretty easy to fudge in these reports to help your side. No different then people overinflating the price of the Osprey by using the last two decades of money invested and dividing it by the total number of Ospreys being purchased. As appose to the fly-away cost of the aircraft which is significantly lower as its only the cost to buy the parts and pay the labor.

 

[raptor10]

I would say that Putin and his siloviki (do a search SOG ), are all bad guys, but I don't think we can write off a whole country because of corrupt politicians.

After all they did give us amazing opera singers like Anna Netrebko:

 

[invertedflyer]

Numbers are pretty easy to fudge in these reports to help your side. No different then people overinflating the price of the Osprey by using the last two decades of money invested and dividing it by the total number of Ospreys being purchased. As appose to the fly-away cost of the aircraft which is significantly lower as its only the cost to buy the parts and pay the labor.

I agree that the $350 million / raptor is a number that I haven't come across before. The last I heard the raptors were $180-$195 million per. I think that the aforementioned article's author overinflated that a bit. As far as the F-35, I've never come across numbers lower than $66 mil.

 

[raptor10]

I agree that the $350 million / raptor is a number that I haven't come across before. The last I heard the raptors were $180-$195 million per. I think that the aforementioned article's author overinflated that a bit. As far as the F-35, I've never come across numbers lower than $66 mil.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Sept2006/0906altitude.asp

The Article is from Sep 2006

Unit costs for the JSF are calculated in 2002 dollars, because that’s the year the development program got under way. In 2014, when production reaches about 21 airplanes per month, the F-35A will cost $48 million a copy. The F-35B and F-35C will cost $62 million and $63 million, respectively. By comparison, the Eurofighter Typhoon—probably JSF’s closest foreign competitor—costs more than $95 million and the F-22 is expected to come in at an average of about $120 million by the time production winds up in 2010.

 

[invertedflyer]

This article cites the F-35s cost at around $100 million in 2013. Another site that I read up on estimated it between $80-$120 million. I've found mixed numbers as well.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/337511.html

 

[bert]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...1178&manuel_call_mod=feature&modele=jdc_inter

The article explains the cost methodology.

 

[Fly Navy]

The procurement process is terrible, I agree. That being said, we're in an era of super technology... we're not building simplistic A-4s and whatnot anymore... you have to pay for the technology. Granted, it should be cheaper, there are all sorts of things inflating the price, but that being said, you're never going to see the prices we all think jets should be... never again.