The Great Universal Health Care Debate w/Poll (note: it just passed both houses)

[Clux4]

Clux, yes, he got called out. And rightfully so.

I guess he did because Ken says so!!. 1 Brownie point for Republicans and 0 for Democrats. Whoopi

If you feel hurt he forgot to wish the military a merry christmas, what about the firefighters, the police, government workers, the intelligence community. Get a grip.

 

[HeyJoe]

It's Christmas GUYS (ladies don't seem to partake in partisan bashing). There's a truce in effect. No more opposing party bashing...at least today.

 

[Recovering LSO]

If someone spends 20 years in the military and then retires, chooses to keep Tricare until Medicare takes over wont they have spent their entire life using a single payer government option? Am I understanding this incorrectly or does it seem a bit odd for a bunch of people who are currently using such a "terrible" system to be so outspoken against it?

Personally, the worst part of this bill is the proposed mandate it presents. FORCING someone to to use the government plan or pay fines on top of their own private provider premiums strikes me as a much greater problem than the coverage itself.

Steve, no matter what you post here and regardless of the condescending tone you use to present your arguments - polling has MAJOR faults. UF offers a great course called Public Opinion and Government Policy, check it out...

Now that its fairly obvious that some form of this bill is going to pass it seems to me that it would be in the GOP's interest (assuming they have any of our interests in mind) to work towards making the bill the best that it can rather than continuing to bring themselves down to the bickering and petty level of their foes across the aisle. Not holding my breath.

 

[magnetfreezer]

If someone spends 20 years in the military and then retires, chooses to keep Tricare until Medicare takes over wont they have spent their entire life using a single payer government option? Am I understanding this incorrectly or does it seem a bit odd for a bunch of people who are currently using such a "terrible" system to be so outspoken against it?

Not at all. The "single payer government option" for mil/retirees is not a welfare benefit, it's a compensation for your military service. Same as if you worked for a private company and they gave you insurance for free. The difference is the military has a lot of their own infrastructure because it makes sense (deployed medical personnel, flight docs, bases in tiny towns, etc)

 

[Spekkio]

Sidenote: The thread title is misleading; since the bill was amended in the Senate to remove the public option, it technically hasn't passed both houses. It still must go back to the House and be voted on in its current state.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Not at all. The "single payer government option" for mil/retirees is not a welfare benefit, it's a compensation for your military service. Same as if you worked for a private company and they gave you insurance for free. The difference is the military has a lot of their own infrastructure because it makes sense (deployed medical personnel, flight docs, bases in tiny towns, etc)

Call it what you want, a "welfare benefit" or compensation - the fact of the matter is that, in execution, it is a exactly what everyone is afraid of now. These concerns are not without some justification but for some perspective - if you're in the military, its what you have now.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Steve, no matter what you post here and regardless of the condescending tone you use to present your arguments - polling has MAJOR faults. UF offers a great course called Public Opinion and Government Policy, check it out...

Did I say it didn't have faults? Nope. Honestly, I haven't said a whole lot about it. It's interesting though that when poll after poll after poll after poll shows that Americans disapprove of these measures, suddenly the polls mean nothing. A single poll, signifying a snapshot in time, is meaningless to me. However, when the same results are exhibited over a period of time from multiple polling sources, should we not be asking ourselves if maybe, just maybe, there might be something to it.

If I get a Masters in Public Policy from UF and take the course you suggest, will my comments then have credence in your eyes? Will I learn the errors of my ways?

And my tone isn't condescending. Arrogant, yes. But definitely not condescending. :icon_wink

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Yeap, I said it. You are no more in the military, what does it matter?

Because I'm still an American.

What are you trying to say here? I am not using VA yet. Are you talking from experience, and if so, share it. The proposed bill will not affect it. What are you getting at?

Yes, I'm talking from experience. The VA health care system is nothing to be proud of, which is why I pay $5000 per year for my own insurance for a family of 4 (and that's with my company contributing about another $2500). My fear with this system this reform is that it will eventually turn the private sector health care system into just another VA system for civilians. Everyone can talk all they want about the single payer system being taken out of this bill. However, once the pandora's box is open, it'll get through eventually.

I guess our system of government is now inefficient?

It was designed to be inefficient (a result of the checks and balances).

This bill is not cutting corners, if that is what you are implying.

No, it's definitely not cutting corners.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Check the news lately?

I'm not following the line of thought in reference to Random's post. I read the article, but I'm not seeing the correlation.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Anyone can frame a poll to come out with whatever results they (or the party or PAC paying for it) desire. Recent question during a phone poll: "Would you rather continue with expensive and difficult to use insurance models or would you instead prefer affordable and all inclusive insurance that everyone could have?" This was a question that I was asked by a pollster that being funded by the DNC (getting them to tell me who was paying for the poll was harder than trying to get toothpaste back in the tube). But....Since I humor these people and participate in their polls my phone number gets passed along amongst other calling banks --> "Would you prefer a plan that encouraged personal responsibility and held true to the principles of capitalism or would you prefer a socialist health care plan that placed a tax burden on ordinary working Americans?" This was part of a poll paid for by, you guessed it, a GOP associated PAC. Both are terrible leading questions that cause the respondent to feel that there is only one right answer. These results are then fancied up and turned into graphics on major "news" outlets and print media.

Polls.... You can find as many as you want that point to the answer you agree with and someone else will find an equal number showing support for the opposing point of view. They're like junk food for the media and partisan politicians.

 

[Clux4]

Anyone can frame a poll to come out with whatever results they (or the party or PAC paying for it) desire. Recent question during a phone poll: "Would you rather continue with expensive and difficult to use insurance models or would you instead prefer affordable and all inclusive insurance that everyone could have?" This was a question that I was asked by a pollster that being funded by the DNC (getting them to tell me who was paying for the poll was harder than trying to get toothpaste back in the tube). But....Since I humor these people and participate in their polls my phone number gets passed along amongst other calling banks --> "Would you prefer a plan that encouraged personal responsibility and held true to the principles of capitalism or would you prefer a socialist health care plan that placed a tax burden on ordinary working Americans?" This was part of a poll paid for by, you guessed it, a GOP associated PAC. Both are terrible leading questions that cause the respondent to feel that there is only one right answer. These results are then fancied up and turned into graphics on major "news" outlets and print media.

Polls.... You can find as many as you want that point to the answer you agree with and someone else will find an equal number showing support for the opposing point of view. They're like junk food for the media and partisan politicians.

Take the poll on this page for instance, it does not tell you anything. There are no branch or sequels to those questions, so I can't see how anyone will come up with anything conclusive. It was probably a joke to begin with.
Polls are really had to create and many people are just not ready for the work involved. Political polls are even more challenging.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Yes, but polls are very valuable if you take the time to find out what groups were polled, how many were polled, and what the questions were. And when, despite the differences in format, day-of-the-week the poll is taken, whether it was of adults or likely voters, or from a more liberal or conservative organization, EVERY poll shows the same trend, and the majority on the same side of the issue, you can be pretty confident in the results.

 

[Brett327]

Either way, the bill hasn't "passed" in the sense that both the House and Sennate have voted on a mutually agreed upon bill. The bill still has to go through conference committee and voted on there before it's ready for the President to sign. This thing still has a long way to go before it becomes law, although passage of some sort does seem inevitable at this point.

Brett

 

[Brett327]

That's a good policy, HJ. I don't think it's partisan to point out that this wasn't a "Christmas address" speech. I suspect we'll get one of those tonight. This was a statement specifically on the Senate's passage of the healthcare bill - no other issues were discussed. Let's all stop looking for smoking guns where there aren't any to find.

Merry Xmas,

Brett

 

[HeyJoe]

I'm not following the line of thought in reference to Random's post. I read the article, but I'm not seeing the correlation.

First sentence: Bill passed in both houses.

Either way, the bill hasn't "passed" in the sense that both the House and Sennate have voted on a mutually agreed upon bill. The bill still has to go through conference committee and voted on there before it's ready for the President to sign. This thing still has a long way to go before it becomes law, although passage of some sort does seem inevitable at this point.

Brett

House/Senate Conferences are called when there are major differences in language (ie Defense Appropriations/Authorization Bills ALWAYS go to Conference like they just did). Thomas.gov tracks all Bills and it shows a veritable lovefest:

12/24/2009:
Senate ordered measure printed as passed.