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The layman's Lehman thread

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
heyjoe said:
He was casually dressed and wearing HIS leather flight jacket that he earned in flight school, which was totally cool.

"Earned" may not be the right word. Lehman's acquistion of NFO wings has always been something of an issue - especially back in 1980, when he was being considered for the SecNav job. Saying that he went to flight school is a huge overstatement. Even calling his course of instruction a "syllabus" is overly generous - apparently, he would show up in P-Cola for a week here, a week there, bag some hours, and go back to Washington. Same thing for his RAG instruction. Presto, he's a winged NFO. Also, apparently a nightmare to fly with - barely even safe in the jet, let alone tactically competent. I've heard multiple stories of JOs refusing to fly with him.

Of course, all this is hearsay - which I cheerfully repeat here as fact.... Don't know if any of you old school A-6 types have heard this or otherwise.

He's one of those characters that you know did good things for the Navy, but it was also not without cost. Some of his tactics & bureaucratic maneuverings were either genius or irresponsible, depending on where you stand.

Sorry for the threadjack!
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
FlyinSpy said:
"Earned" may not be the right word. Lehman's acquistion of NFO wings has always been something of an issue - especially back in 1980, when he was being considered for the SecNav job. ............Of course, all this is hearsay - which I cheerfully repeat here as fact.... Don't know if any of you old school A-6 types have heard this or otherwise. .......Sorry for the threadjack!

No problem-O on the threadjack ... but you are wrong on Lehman. To a degree, at least --- like everyone --- he is not perfect. I don't drink from his cup .... but check out the following AW thread:

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6174&highlight=john+lehman


In particular post # 13 (?) if you want first-hand gouge on Johnny ..... :)
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
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FlyinSpy said:
"Earned" may not be the right word. Lehman's acquistion of NFO wings has always been something of an issue - especially back in 1980, when he was being considered for the SecNav job.
Those of us on active duty when he was SecNav mostly have nothing but praise for the man.

He flew combat in Viet nam as an A-6 BN. I never heard anyone doubt his NFO wings.

I did hear that as SecNav he transitioned himself to pilot during his reserve weekends. That maybe what you are talking about. But again, I never heard anyone having any heart burn with this. RHIP and he was the HMFIC.
 

zab1001

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pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ok, I'm confused, because I just re-checked and from what I've read, Lehman didn't start his flight training until 1974. The last US troops were withdrawn on March 29, 1973. From what I've read, Lehman had one hop as an observer in an A-6 in 1972, off the Saratoga.

I'm about to go to bed, but does anyone know offhand if he wrote an autobiography? Maybe someone else did a bio on him? Now I'm curious if I'm taking crazy pills instead of antibiotics.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
zab1001 said:
Ok, I'm confused, because I just re-checked and from what I've read, Lehman didn't start his flight training until 1974. The last US troops were withdrawn on March 29, 1973. From what I've read, Lehman had one hop as an observer in an A-6 in 1972, off the Saratoga.

I'm about to go to bed, but does anyone know offhand if he wrote an autobiography? Maybe someone else did a bio on him? Now I'm curious if I'm taking crazy pills instead of antibiotics.

Percocet.... Penicillin.... eh.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
zab1001 said:
Ok, I'm confused, because I just re-checked and from what I've read, Lehman didn't start his flight training until 1974. The last US troops were withdrawn on March 29, 1973. From what I've read, Lehman had one hop as an observer in an A-6 in 1972, off the Saratoga.

I'm about to go to bed, but does anyone know offhand if he wrote an autobiography? Maybe someone else did a bio on him? Now I'm curious if I'm taking crazy pills instead of antibiotics.
Maybe I'm remebering wrong, but I thought he was commissioned an Ensign in 1968 and flew as a BN in Viet Nam. I've searched the web and all I can find are references to him as either a A-6 BN or A-6 pilot but nothing on the time frame.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
LEHMAN threadjack continues .....

Here's the way I think it went with Lehman .... but no promises ... just what I remember.

He graduated college in '64 or '65 and spent a few years in the AF Reserves while going to Cambridge (now how in the hell did he manage that ??? He knew somebody :) ). He then accepted a commission in the USNR as an Ensign @ 1969 ('68?) --- but was not flight school bound. This may be where he got his "Vietnam" time ... as a black shoe ... but I do not believe he touched an A-6 at this time as a "qualified" B/N. No suprise if he got a ride .. depending on what his job was ... we used to give AI's and "others" a ride on occasion. Especially in the tanker. He later became qualed as an A-6 B/N when a SELRES ... and continued to fly "in" them, ship and shore, as an O-5 and as SecNav ... which was not too hard, as he owned all the airplanes.

He pulled civilian duty with some luminaries while tangentially participating in the Reserves ... Kissinger (I had a conversation with him at Dallas Love while he was waiting for a flight --- he didn't like my take or views on the status of POW/MIA's -- probably lucky I'm still alive) , Dick Allen (I get to call him "Dick" vice "Richard" or "Mr" as we met one morning while sweating in the fitness center at the Hotel Shilla in Seoul --- had breakfast later --- he told me to call him "Dick" :) ), Sen. "Scoop" Jackson (gave me a nomination to the Boat Skool) , and the Prince of Darkness ... Richard Perle (don't know him --- I do NOT get to call him "Dick":( ). But all in all .... some pretty good sponsors, yes??? Lehman understood Washington politicians and Washington power.

I would not put too much faith or trust in the book "Fall from Glory" ... the author is portrayed as being an a-political, hard-working researcher .... but I seriously doubt it. But then, some of the cheer-leading FOR Lehman is also probably misplaced. But at the end of the day ... he did a LOT of good things for the Navy --- forget the flight jackets and brown shoes --- that's rah-rah kid stuff. He was at the helm (SecNav '81-'87) when the Navy sailed from the post-Vietnam doldrums through the Carter malaise and became the robust force that we saw under the Reagan administration. They didn't do everything right --- they wasted a LOT of tax dollars while buying EVERYTHING and preparing to fight the Soviets. But then .... we never had to go "hot" against Ivan, did we?? And after Desert Storm most of the competition collapsed from the weight of trying to "keep up" with the Lehmans and Reagans.

He's criticized as being an "old school" elitist-traditionalist. So what?? So am I .....

But Lehman had foresight as well. Example: Do you like standoff, precision-guided munitions??? After the A-6 debacle in Syria when all the "good" lessons from Vietnam were thrown out the window and only the "bad" ones were remembered -- and implemented, SecNav Johnny said --- "no more silver clouds" over the target as a tactic. In other words, why subject an ALPHA strike with 35-70 aviators onboard to a sophisticated AA defense system when you don't have to?? Why put all those birds and bodies in harm's way to put hundreds of warheads on foreheads .... when one PGM might just do the job? Lehman was one of the prime movers --- policy wise --- of steering Naval Aviation toward the course that it maintains today. He stated the Navy MUST move in that direction if it was going to retain aircraft carriers. We obviously don't have the numbers he envisioned and I think that's a problem. But no one asked me ...




Like other influential personalities, Johnny will have his detractors --- frequently birthed in other agendas or just plain ... envy ..... :) . Admiral Hayward hated him. But Lehman fought the battles against CNO, the DCNO's (who were really "platform barons" and spent like drunken sailors), and with much energy (my opinion) --- brought aquisition related responsibilities into the DoN instead of relying on DCNO's, as had been done in the past.

Did he do a "traditional" NFO syllabus?? I don't know. But then ... I flew the F-4, A-7, S-2, and A-3 in CUBI ... no "traditional" syllabus. Just jumped in and did it as LSO crosstraining. I had some "good sponsors" as well ....

Besides all the above .... Lehman rode in my back seat on an ACM hop against some VF-201 F-4's. He exhibited good headwork, lookout doctrine, airmanship, and he didn't get sick. And he "bought" me lunch and a beer. Cheers. :icon_rast
 

airwinger

Member
pilot
One of the more interesting things I've noted in military aviation is how being a celebrity(willingly or not) means that you automatically become an idiot. Further if you meet some dude when you're having an off day his judgement is forever based on that one incident.
Three common examples?
1) Scott O'grady- based on all I've heard, he couldn't pour piss out of a boot and yet he WAS a winged pilot and an F-16 pilot and he did survive 5(?) days on the run.
2)Randall Cunningham-"average pilot","mediocre officer" most online accounts I've seen would have me believe that he was blundering along in North Vietnam, accidentally squeezed the trigger and 5 migs fell to ground.
3)Marion Carl-met a guy once who declared that he was useless since one day he climbed into the wrong airplane. The man had 10,000 hours and was a world war II ace. some balance perhaps.

My point is that no ones a saint or the devil.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
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A4sForever said:
(editied to remove gigundo post. reference #7 by A4s.)

Lehman was SECNAV and drilling at Oceana in 80s. He was universally popular and would spend time in O Club like he was part of our community, but that wasn't why we liked him. He was there interacting and listening and things got done besides getting back our leather jackets and brown shoes. He got the Tomcat headed down the upgrade path after it was literally stillborn for years. he brought back Jo Satrapa after flying ACM with him. He got modern mission planning underway (TAMPS). We were all ready to take on the Russian Bear and knew we had someone in the pentagon who knew what that meant instead of a former industry suit that nobody ever saw. This was really needed after the Carter administration. It put wind back in our sails.

As far as his wings....many asked because he had an A-4 patch on his flight jacket. Our collective knowledge was that he was one birght gent who got noticed and tapped by Kissinger and that crowd to work high level political stuff. He started flight school intending to become a pilot and kept getting yanked for demands of Washington. he decided that wasn't safe so elected to finish up and become a NFO instead training when he could break away. He didn't have to do any of this to get rides especially after becoming SECNAV, but he did and he drilled. He didn't need the money, he's a very successful businessman. He's a leader whether you like everything he's done or not (agree that "Fall from Glory" was a hatchet job by an author that wouldn't let Tailhook 91 die and was angling for bigger and better deals on the backs of Naval Aviation with visions of a Pulitzer prize in his head). Read Lehman's book and judge for yourself.

I saw more of this SECNAV than all others combined. You could walk right up to him and start a conversation and he'd listen intently. And what other SECNAV has had the gumption to stand in front of the crowd at Tailhook and ask for their best shots?...that's how brown shoes came back...on the spot decision based on clamor from the ranks. We owe him a lot.


....and @ FlyinSpy....yes, he earned that flight jacket as much as anyone else. You don't have to get your wings to rate a flight jacket. I am glad he kept at it and didn't give up on becoming a part of Naval Aviation.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
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John Lehman was not your fathers' (or grandfather's) SecNav (1981 – '87). Well educated, from a very prominent family, with superb conservative connections, and a keen intellect, he was above all, no shrinking violet. He was controversial. But he was the best thing that had happened to the Navy in many years.

Now there were always some questions as to his exact naval career profile including his flight "training syllabus" and specific pilot qualifications. It was sometimes a topic of private conversation, and was also mostly rumor. I don't know the truth of it. But all that is really beside the point.

Lehman shook up the Navy. This otherwise Naval Reserve JO took on certain admirals, from CNO on down, head-on. He questioned the status quo, provided a new vision for the Navy, and bull-rushed all obstacles in marching toward his stated goal of a "600 ship navy." Unless it was your ox being gored, or his involvement stepped on your toes, he was immensely popular within the Navy – especially in naval aviation, and especially with JO's who could identify with him, and saw the many positive changes he made.

Nevertheless, Lehman was controversial. He frequently locked horns with icons of the Navy (i.e. forcing Adm. Rickover to resign), Congress, the CIA and defense contractors. He made enemies. And he was not perfect. He made some mistakes, and he was eventually forced to resign from the Reagan Administration.

The only time I ever personally met him was when General Dynamics provided him a prototype F-16 to fly. I was his chase plane for that flight, with GD's chief test pilot in my back seat. I will say this: That man Lehman flew that airplane beyond belief! He put it through its paces in all regimes. Even though I was much more experienced than he, it was indeed a wild ride, and it was difficult for me as chase to keep up. . . an eye-watering flight!


You can tell a lot about a man by how he flies. I liked John Lehman.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
re: SecNav Johnny Lehman:

Thanks for the backup, Joe and Cat ...... the defense rests. :)

p.s. on the right pix above ... kinda' makes me chuckle .... although John had seen them many times before (they were certainly nothing "new") .... he mentioned that he liked my orange bag on our flight/fight ... he said that you "really stick out in a crowd" with it.

I note with amusement that he later started wearing them almost exclusively instead of his usual green bag. Always lookin' for the advantage ..... :)

p.p.s. .... opinion: John Lehman is a perfect example of why our military secretaries should be former military personnel .... instead of political hacks and bureaucrats .... climbers, if you will. The service secretaries need to have "walked the walk" .....
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
A4s for SECNAV!

Anyway... interesting thread, just watched a huge documentary mainly focused on Reagan's military policies.
 

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
A4sForever said:
re: SecNav Johnny Lehman:

Thanks for the backup, Joe and Cat ...... the defense rests. :)

Some of you may know "Beef" Wellington, old school Hornet guy, former skipper of VFA-203. Gave one of the best change of command speeches I've ever heard (http://www.sgtmoms.com/data/modules/pbm/rendered/beef.asp).

One observation Beef made during the speech relating to the naval aviation culture (and I swear to Jesus this will eventually relate back to John Lehman...) was "How do you explain an environment where the content of a man's character can be summed up into two simple 4 word phrases......."He's a good sh!t" or "He's a f@ckin' idiot." In this community, we tend to be very black and white about a lot of issues that probably aren't supposed to be sorted that way. If I was forced to choose one regarding Lehman, I'll take the "good sh!t". That's the problem with binary choices, though - you either are or you're not. He was no saint, and by many accounts was a first class a$$hole. Don't get me wrong, though - sometimes that's what a leader needs to do. I wish more people would show his passion and interest these days, and his grasp of the issues affecting his department. Even if he was off base in some of his decisions (my opinion), they were generally part of a larger and grander scheme and usually had sound rationale behind them.

(As an aside, I think one of his best and most lasting contributions was the formation of what was then Strike U, and has since morphed into NSAWC. Lehman saw a problem - poor performance during the 1983 raid on Lebanon - and formed, over the objections of many, the strike analog to Top Gun. If he did nothing else, he made a significant contribution to the future of naval aviation. And we all know he did plenty more than that.)

Bottom line? Good sh!t. But I'm also not building a shrine to the man in my basement.


BTW - Lehman also gave the best speech I've heard so far concerning what this nation faces in the the post 9/11 world: http://www.citizensoldier.org/lehman.html And yes, I hear a lot of speeches.....
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
FlyinSpy said:
Some of you may know "Beef" Wellington......In this community, we tend to be very black and white about a lot of issues .... that probably aren't supposed to be sorted that way. .....(emphasis mine)

1. Never heard of "Beef" ... but he has a good point.

2. "Black and white"?? Those are good colors (and attitudes) to go with when you are moving @ +/- 500 KIAS; literally or figuratively.

The color gray will usually get you killed .... :)
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
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FlyinSpy said:
Some of you may know "Beef" Wellington, old school Hornet guy, former skipper of VFA-203. Gave one of the best change of command speeches I've ever heard (http://www.sgtmoms.com/data/modules/pbm/rendered/beef.asp).

One observation Beef made during the speech relating to the naval aviation culture (and I swear to Jesus this will eventually relate back to John Lehman...) was "How do you explain an environment where the content of a man's character can be summed up into two simple 4 word phrases......."He's a good sh!t" or "He's a f@ckin' idiot." In this community, we tend to be very black and white about a lot of issues that probably aren't supposed to be sorted that way. If I was forced to choose one regarding Lehman, I'll take the "good sh!t". That's the problem with binary choices, though - you either are or you're not. He was no saint, and by many accounts was a first class a$$hole. Don't get me wrong, though - sometimes that's what a leader needs to do. I wish more people would show his passion and interest these days, and his grasp of the issues affecting his department. Even if he was off base in some of his decisions (my opinion), they were generally part of a larger and grander scheme and usually had sound rationale behind them.

(As an aside, I think one of his best and most lasting contributions was the formation of what was then Strike U, and has since morphed into NSAWC. Lehman saw a problem - poor performance during the 1983 raid on Lebanon - and formed, over the objections of many, the strike analog to Top Gun. If he did nothing else, he made a significant contribution to the future of naval aviation. And we all know he did plenty more than that.)

Bottom line? Good sh!t. But I'm also not building a shrine to the man in my basement.


BTW - Lehman also gave the best speech I've heard so far concerning what this nation faces in the the post 9/11 world: http://www.citizensoldier.org/lehman.html And yes, I hear a lot of speeches.....

Didn't know "Beef", and his speech link unfortunately seems to be broken. But I think I understand the issue.

The serious business of naval aviation is a very demanding, and an especially dynamic one. It requires of pilots quick thinking and rapid action in most instances. To do that, we must quickly reduce the most complex, demanding, and dangerous situations into their most basic form – a nearly immediate and simple, "yes or no"; then we must quickly act.

Indeed, we all were selected and groomed to excel in this demanding and dynamic environment. It is a part of our training, and it's a part of our makeup. By design, we naturally think and rapidly reduce most things into simple, "black-and-white" terms. For us, black and white often means life or death. "Gray" (as A4s correctly indicates) is dangerous.

As black-and-white military men, we correctly leave it to the politicians, the diplomats, and bureaucrats to take their time and quibble over all the gray areas. That is their job.

In my black and white world, I personally liked John Lehman, not only as a person, but also especially, for what he did for the Navy and country while he was SecNav.

However, anyone who wants to explore the gray area of this complex man, there is much to find. He was by no means perfect. If I wanted to cherry-pick his career, I could write two very different biographies of the man: One of him a saint; or another, the complete opposite with him as the devil incarnate. Certainly, he did many great things, but he also made some big mistakes.

He was an iconoclast, who shook up the status quo, which also angered many people. This is seen in how he modified the following famous quote to suit himself:

Original:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. . " (John Emerich Edward Dalberg)
Lehman's revision:
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. " (John Lehman)

He liked power, and he used it. In a black and white world, I liked him and what he did. In the world of gray, it wasn't always that simple . . . or pretty.
 
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