The Oldest Aircraft on active duty? (P-3 vs Phrog vs Huey)

[Lawman]

The army put all their eggs in the LORAN basket or something?

You'd think. Worlds most advanced attack helicopter... not IFR Certified. Our dual GPS is amazing but because it was designed with a database that can be edited from the crew stations the FAA wont sign off on it. We've got a single ADF but without a second NAV that wont cut it. Blk III will have Dual VOR (Same as the new Hawks/Chinooks) but in addition has a non corruptible database of GPS that will be separate from the aircraft's AMPS Load. Kiowa will still be a VFR only aircraft until they get the F model sometime around.... Oh never at the rate that aircrafts programs have gone.


Funny enough Ive actually seen and used a LORAN in a Cessna once.

 

[Coota0]

Only IFR the F will have is I Follow Roads.

 

[Lawman]

Only IFR the F will have is I Follow Roads.

Its Ok, Firescout is IFR Certified right?

 

[flaps]

went flying with a friend (old a-4 driver, retired 777 skipper) in his '81 beech 58 the other day..

his $130k airplane has a partial glass cockpit, 4 radios, 2 gps systems, a radar and a cas system plus a lot of other crap.

seems to me, the military industrial complex ought to be able to work together and get the helo community up to an average private airplane's com/nav capability.

having worked for grumman for many years i can tell you the military (navairsyscom and the vx guys) side of the house is at least as inefficient as the dirtbag contractors when it comes to getting 'need to have' stuff to the the squadron level users.

ain't right, just is.

one notable exception was the f14 lantirn system... contract approval to delivery in less than a year. how did they do it?

simple, they bypassed VX 9.

 

[Catmando]

Sometimes it seems that those who really need it for the mission, never get it. But others easily do.

After flying F-4s operationally and in combat in Vietnam in 1971-'73, with a single 1953 developed ARC-27 that consisted of 55 tubes (if some of you guys even know what those are), no transistors, (although my stateroom Sansui 5000x, hundreds-of-watts receiver was all "solid-state"), my old F-4B UHF weighed 71 pounds. Indeed we were NORDO frequently and aborted too many missions because of it.

Later on shore duty, I flew a NA-4C that had the same old singular UHF and an old TACAN. We complained about the Nav/Com equipment to the CO. The next day the ATs installed a super, solid-state civilian VHF and a civilian VOR, all bought at the local civilian airport and installed into our NA-4C.

Finally we could adequately do our mission in the Northeast Corridor of the US, without worrying about going NORDO with single ancient radio and TACAN, tube avionics.

But the only reason we could do this within a day or two, was because of the "N" in front of the A-4C. That "N" in aircraft designations means that A-4 can never return to the fleet. We could modify it as we needed, without any delay or BS.

​

Below: Old ARC-27 Control Panel, and the 71 pound tube box (that failed a lot).

View my old, 145062, NA-4C Scooter.

 

[Flugelman]

Below: Old ARC-27 Control Panel, and the 71 pound tube box (that failed a lot).

Yer makin' this ol' Tweet's heart go pitty pat with all the dirty pictures, Cat. Worked on many of those in the P2 days. We still had an ARC-27 bench at AIMD in Corpus when I was Leading Chief there. The VT-27 T-28s and the station C-131 still used them.

 

[scoolbubba]

There's probably one floating around a P-3 somewhere. I love it, depending on what bird I'm flying, the technology runs the gamut from analog, vacuum tube, dial the number UHFs/VHFs, to CNS-ATM gucci. Lipstick on a pig, I suppose.

 

[Catmando]

Yer makin' this ol' Tweet's heart go pitty pat with all the dirty pictures, Cat. Worked on many of those in the P2 days. We still had an ARC-27 bench at AIMD in Corpus when I was Leading Chief there. The VT-27 T-28s and the station C-131 still used them.

Good for you! You certainly had your work cut out for you!

Although you may not have worked on my cranky UHFs (I was in Beeville, then Miramar, then USS Midway). Nevertheless, thank you for all your work, and for your dedicated service! You guys were special.

 

[KBayDog]

Youngsters.

From the link: "The UH-1N could be in the fleet until 2014 when the last UH-1Y is delivered."

Good timing. The SD Union Tribune just had an article, loosely based on the truth, abut Pendlton's last UH-1Ns.

FWIW, on the Left Coast, Pendleton still has three Phrog squadrons, Miramar has 1.25 Phroggers (one squadron is doing the MEU thing, and the other one has four birds left), and Edwards has one squadron.

Youngsters.

 

[Coota0]

Its Ok, Firescout is IFR Certified right?

Sure, until it goes on another rampage over D.C.

The Military Industrial complex has some great stuff for helos... http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en_US/Bell407AH-Launch/1296721423210.html#/?tab=highlights-tab

Of course if the Army bought it we'd tear out all of that wonderful gear and put our own crappy equipment in

 

[Jim123]

The Military Industrial complex has some great stuff for helos... http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en_US/Bell407AH-Launch/1296721423210.html#/?tab=highlights-tab

"Commercially qualified, armed helicopter" My imagination is running wild...

Back to the helicopter drone threadjack, here is a not-too-far-fetched idea about using an unmanned K-max as a water bomber:

http://jalopnik.com/?_escaped_fragm...-that-could-help-stop-japans-nuclear-disaster

 

[Pags]

First, flaps, thanks for your service.

Second, I'm not sure how it was in your day, but saying that bypassing vx-9 and OT is a good way to get systems to the Fleet sounds just like dozens of 'dirtbag contractors' I've heard over the years who claimed that the 'workarounds' in their products were 'good enough.' These guys are generally retired or former military who have just enough pull with their former buddies to get someone senior enough to say 'We NEED this system now!' You want it bad, you'll get it bad. Operational Test is looking out for the Fleet, no one's paycheck changes or has stock price rise if something is found effective and/ or suitable.' Can you say the same of a contractor who is pushing his wares to bypass OT? As a side note, NAVAIR and OT are completely separate and different animals and certainly don't constitute the entirety of the acquisition process.

Not to mention that OT is legally required to ensure that the taxpayers money is being used responsibly and not to buy a lemon / scratch someones back.

Effective and suitable? Now you're talking my language.

 

[Jim123]

Uh, contrary point of view here on the system to get good gear to the fleet- I'd just like to point out that a couple minor flaws in the SH-60 NVG cockpit lighting kit when used with AN/AVS-6 NVGs- I used to be able to see a reflection of my lap and kneeboard on the windshield but there wasn't enough light on the radar altimeter (kinda important...) to be able to read it (pilot workaround- remember which direction the needle is pointing when you're on deck). That and the glass filter to fit over the caution panel usually needed some "persuasion" to get it into place.

The "system" has never been perfect, just sayin'.

Almost forgot- does the armament control panel in the new 60s have a guard on the trigger (the one to drop your torpedos)? Guys used to put a piece of duct tape over that button to guard it if they were carrying torps.

I'll stop now.

 

[helolumpy]

I'd just like to point out that a couple minor flaws in the SH-60 NVG cockpit lighting kit when used with AN/AVS-6 NVGs- I used to be able to see a reflection of my lap and kneeboard on the windshield but there wasn't enough light on the radar altimeter (kinda important...) to be able to read it (pilot workaround- remember which direction the needle is pointing when you're on deck). That and the glass filter to fit over the caution panel usually needed some "persuasion" to get it into place.

It wasn't the system that failed in the Foxtrot cockpit, it was the money folks who caused the Blue Glass to happen.

The Foxtrot was never viewed as the long term replacement for the H-3, it was an interim fix. By 1996 the Foxtrot was already deemed a legacy platform and it was only 5 years old at that point. There was no requirement for an NVG cockpit, so it wasn't ordered with it. (Since we were buying HH-60H's at the same time and they came with a totally compatable cockpit, it wasn't a avionics issue as much as a $$$ issue)

The Navy came up with the Blue Glass to make the cockpit NVG Friendly (vice compatable) since there was no money to buy purchase lots of new avionics. (Case in point, IAW the 60F NATOPS the last 4 BUNOS off the assembly line were infact NVG compatable. I've never seen them, but it was in NATOPS so it's gotta be true).
In the late 90's (1997 if I remember correctly) the NAVAIR also released a message stating that the Navy would no longer purchase non-NVG avionics. Don't know if that was actually followed through on since in 2009, I was still flying with the Blue Glass out at HS-10.

This issue of NVG in non-NVG compatable cockpit came up at a 3710 conference once (the topic was asking to have the exception to the requirement to wear glove in low-level flight overwater put back into 3710. Our reason was flying aided in non-NVG cockpit, you needed the dexterity of no gloves to work the CDU).
The Safety Center was opposed to flying with NVG's in non-NVG compatable cockpits and the Saftey Center rep stated that if the cockpit was not NVG compatable, then you should not be wearing NVG's in it.
I then asked if we were going to take away NVG's from all the Air Wing Plane Guard helos since those helo's would be impacted by the stated no NVG's in non-NVG cockpits.
The Safety Center rep backed off that assertion quickly.

So the Blue Glass was not an Test or Eval problem, it was simply a economic decision made by the Navy while acknowledging that the Plane Guard helo crews would greatly benefit by having NVG's for night SAR.

 

[bert]

So which Eval group do I bitch at for the E-2D cockpit being less capable than an E-2C CNS/ATM (or for day to to day INCONUS use, the plain C with a Garmin).

Neither. Lay that one at the feet of the Program Office. (Who will talk $$ vs. Requirements until you get bored and wander away).