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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
Yeah ... I wasn't gonna' say it 'cause I didn't want to hurt anyone's 'feelings', but it's time for some 'tough love' and a reality check, HAL.
It would seem on cursory examination of this thread that the airline nay-sayers are primarily guys who can't and don't qualify for 'The SHOW' ... they come from communities whose logbooks do not readily translate into the requirements for the major airlines, absent some extra intervention from God. No way, no how ...
So come'on, fellas ... l interviewed (and hired) new-hire candidates for 2 major airlines and I interviewed (and hired) rotor-heads for a big part 135 operation down on the Gulf. I know the score. So give us all a break and at the same time, quit foolin' yourselves on why you have 'no plans' for rushing the airlines ... it doesn't help anyone ... least of all -- you.
No chance of hurt feelings - if you read my posts, you'll notice I didn't say anything about whether or not the airlines are a good deal (since I have no idea) or whether or not some people would be better off getting out before twenty to push for the airlines (they are big boys, they know their own situation and can do the math for themselves), I only answered A4's question on why somebody who did 20 would not want to go on to 30. Sitting at almost 19 years as I am, that is something I have an opinion on.
My onwing in VTs was a 53D guy, and all he wanted in life was to be an airline pilot, so he flew his ass off in VTs, and rented citations and crap on the weekend to get his time up. Not sure what "Pink Sheet Pete" is upto these days, but he proved to me that if you weren't dealt the hand you wanted, make it happen. Frankly, I never saw the allure of piloting a bus. The perks are nice and the pay is good-just not for me (even if I were blessed with non-rotating wings). Good on you guys. If I was gonna work 10 days a month, I'd be a firefighter.
I was at 15 years last year when I had to make a choice to either stay in or get out. At the time, I had the hours to get my ATP (I’m at 2000 right now). With just five years left to get my “20”, it was hard to turn down a guaranteed $40k+ a year with some medical at only 42 years old. I took the devils money and stayed in. I don't intend on doing more than 20 though. My big gamble is whether or not I'll catch the middle of the airline hiring, the end or miss it completely.
I think if I was staring at 8 or 9 years left to hit 20, and with the airline hiring looking favorable in the very near future, I’d bail. I would do my last gig at Meridian or Kingsville, max out flight time and “make some friends” in the airline community, i.e. the reservists. I would also put in my package for MCRIP or as a backup, transfer to the Navy reserves to fly if I couldn’t get into MCRIP. MCRIP is the gouge.
my 2¢
I think if I was staring at 8 or 9 years left to hit 20, and with the airline hiring looking favorable in the very near future, I’d bail. I would do my last gig at Meridian or Kingsville, max out flight time and “make some friends” in the airline community, i.e. the reservists. I would also put in my package for MCRIP or as a backup, transfer to the Navy reserves to fly if I couldn’t get into MCRIP. MCRIP is the gouge.
my 2¢
Jarhead hit the nail on the head, except you need to stay with the Marine Reserve Hornet. Anyone even considering getting out needs to rush a guard/reserve squadron. The earlier the better, especially as we continue to shrink. Great supplemental income your first few years and protection against any potential industry downturns.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Not to cause any hate or discontent, but how is HAL's experience any different than a helo guy getting out and wanting to go to the airlines? I've never been a chief pilot, but if the helo stink coming from the logbook is really that bad - how is special crew time as an NFO more valuable? Seems to me that HAL did exactly what any one of us rotary wing guys would have to do to get to the "SHOW". Seems that DESIRE is really the common denominator here.Yeah ... I wasn't gonna' say it 'cause I didn't want to hurt anyone's 'feelings', but it's time for some 'tough love' and a reality check, HAL.
It would seem on cursory examination of this thread that the airline nay-sayers are primarily guys who can't and don't qualify for 'The SHOW' ... they come from communities whose logbooks do not readily translate into the requirements for the major airlines, absent some extra intervention from God. No way, no how ...
So come'on, fellas ... l interviewed (and hired) new-hire candidates for 2 major airlines and I interviewed (and hired) rotor-heads for a big part 135 operation down on the Gulf. I know the score. So give us all a break and at the same time, quit foolin' yourselves on why you have 'no plans' for rushing the airlines ... it doesn't help anyone ... least of all -- you.
Like you say, my experience is no different than the helo guys except the helo guys probably had a leg up on me. I took the long route and it cost me time and seniority. But it was also one of the reasons I took the early retirement offer at 17 years with the 10% reduction in retirement pay versus staying in to 20 (actually with the pay raises they had in the next 3 years it was closer to a 25% reduction in retirement pay). Mine was a compromise situation at the time but in the long run I think it turned better and better.
My point is that if an airline career is what you want - the sooner you start, the better. If I had to do it all over again, I would have bailed on the Navy a lot sooner even at the cost of my retirement.
My point is that if an airline career is what you want - the sooner you start, the better. If I had to do it all over again, I would have bailed on the Navy a lot sooner even at the cost of my retirement.
This is the key right here - HAL looked at it, saw what he needed to do, and decided that his goal was worth the cost (and if you read his posts you can see he is pretty happy with his job), then paid the price with his eyes wide open. Whether it is the "show" or any other job, you have to be honest about what your current resume is worth and what you have to do to get where you want to go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and most decent pilots are capable of making it to The SHOW -- HELO drivers included.
Most ... but not all ....
... but here's the difference: HAL (and Wink, I believe) were USN NFO's ... NOT pilots. Therefore -- no matter WHAT kine' flight time was extant in their respective USN logbooks -- it wasn't worth jack when they left UNCLE to an airline looking at new hires when they have 1000's (not 100's) of extremely qualified, qualified, and not so qualified applicants in the pool. I've seen a stack of applications ... literally 5 feet tall. The airlines WILL NOT hire HELO drivers when they have beaucoup qualified fixed wing drivers to pick from ... that's just the way it works.
These two guys had to fly, fly, fly ... build FIXED WING logbooks ... get their tickets ... and then be competitive and AVAILABLE at the right time/right place.
You can get your fixed wing time and your tickets but it will take some measure of 'time' ... and here's the key: how many of you think you can 'time it' when it comes to hiring cycles ??? The airlines won't wait for you ... they don't have to wait.
I was lucky w/ my two main airlines ... 4 years w/ one, 25 w/ the other. When I left the NAVY, I was qualified, had good flight time, had all tickets needed to be 'competitive' (and competitive is the key -- as you are competing against literally 1000's of other guys) --- and I WAS AVAILABLE. I got hired at the leading edge of the 'wave' and benefited greatly from 'timing'.
Again, I repeat: I've NEVER talked to an airline pilot (who was former military) that said: "Gee ... I wish I'd stayed in the NAVY (AF, Army, whatever) longer".
If you're gonna' rush the airlines and they are hiring -- you don't get the job just 'cause you think it might be a 'nice' career. You have to plan, plan, and plan some more. And once the decision is made; sooner is mo' bettah than later. It's not hard. It's just the way it works ...
But if I were a HELO-driver and sitting on the south side of 19 years .... hell, no. I'd stay in for the 20 in a heartbeat.
Most ... but not all ....
... but here's the difference: HAL (and Wink, I believe) were USN NFO's ... NOT pilots. Therefore -- no matter WHAT kine' flight time was extant in their respective USN logbooks -- it wasn't worth jack when they left UNCLE to an airline looking at new hires when they have 1000's (not 100's) of extremely qualified, qualified, and not so qualified applicants in the pool. I've seen a stack of applications ... literally 5 feet tall. The airlines WILL NOT hire HELO drivers when they have beaucoup qualified fixed wing drivers to pick from ... that's just the way it works.
These two guys had to fly, fly, fly ... build FIXED WING logbooks ... get their tickets ... and then be competitive and AVAILABLE at the right time/right place.
You can get your fixed wing time and your tickets but it will take some measure of 'time' ... and here's the key: how many of you think you can 'time it' when it comes to hiring cycles ??? The airlines won't wait for you ... they don't have to wait.
I was lucky w/ my two main airlines ... 4 years w/ one, 25 w/ the other. When I left the NAVY, I was qualified, had good flight time, had all tickets needed to be 'competitive' (and competitive is the key -- as you are competing against literally 1000's of other guys) --- and I WAS AVAILABLE. I got hired at the leading edge of the 'wave' and benefited greatly from 'timing'.
Again, I repeat: I've NEVER talked to an airline pilot (who was former military) that said: "Gee ... I wish I'd stayed in the NAVY (AF, Army, whatever) longer".
If you're gonna' rush the airlines and they are hiring -- you don't get the job just 'cause you think it might be a 'nice' career. You have to plan, plan, and plan some more. And once the decision is made; sooner is mo' bettah than later. It's not hard. It's just the way it works ...
But if I were a HELO-driver and sitting on the south side of 19 years .... hell, no. I'd stay in for the 20 in a heartbeat.
You and I aren't talking about the same things - I'm not disagreeing that the people who want to be airline guys ought to cross over as soon as they can (while I can't claim to know crap about the airlines, this seems pretty self evident); airline pilot systems are based on seniority and that seems to mean the sooner you join the better off you are (unless I'm really missing something).
But back to the answer I originally gave to the question you asked: can you think of a situation where a guy who has done 20 and has the resume to support an equal or better paying job in the real world is better off going to 30 unless he is really still in love with being in the Navy? I don't really see one myself.
Bert, you're right on with that one. The only good reason to stay past 20 is because you like it. And most of the time, staying very much past 20 means one has to keep getting promoted, too. At that point, one must just like the institution, because one's probably getting promoted out of what normal people think of as the fun stuff.
Helo guys are in something of a bind. From what I've seen, starting pay at helo jobs is better than at airlines, but the helo pay tops out pretty quickly, while the airline pay keeps rising with seniority. It's not a bad living with a retirement check alongside it, but it's not travel, great pay, and fabulous prizes. That is, unless you think of "travel" as "going to that oil rig."
I still don't know what they (helo companies or airlines) will think of my plopter time. I'll at least get my requisite tickets, but I still won't have a lot of pure fixed-wing time behind them.
Helo guys are in something of a bind. From what I've seen, starting pay at helo jobs is better than at airlines, but the helo pay tops out pretty quickly, while the airline pay keeps rising with seniority. It's not a bad living with a retirement check alongside it, but it's not travel, great pay, and fabulous prizes. That is, unless you think of "travel" as "going to that oil rig."
I still don't know what they (helo companies or airlines) will think of my plopter time. I'll at least get my requisite tickets, but I still won't have a lot of pure fixed-wing time behind them.
Well, whadda ya' know??? Agree completely.
I am jumping in late here, and admit I haven't read the entire thread. As my name came up I'll offer some personal insight. On the original question of whether the airlines are still a good deal, I can say with great assurance and enthusiasm, maybe. It is worth it if you get a good gig and that is a real crap shoot. The airlines vary a pretty good deal wrt pay, benefits, work rules, employee relations and likelihood of survival. It is worth it if you like airline flying. I can take or leave the flying the line. I had a lot more fun as a S-3 NFO then flying the line for a major airline. (Which is why I have always said I'd rather be a TACAIR NFO than a heavy lift USAF pilot.) On the other hand, I like my current lifestyle much better. But I wouldn't have the lifestyle I have if didn't have high relative seniority flying the smallest plane my airline flies. I chose that, but it costs me income I could have earned flying the B767. Some airlines would not have allowed me to manage my career the way i have at mine. Airline pilot income isn't near what it used to be. These days, depending on the airline and the plane you are flying, you could make as much or more in the Navy. If junior overall, or flying a bigger aircraft or upgrading to captain junior, you could be stuck on reserve for years. Some airlines have onerous reserve policies that can make you wish for a 6 month deployment, or cushy shore duty flying a desk.
I never set out to be an airline pilot, although I had all my tickets and a few hundred hours when I became a NFO (eye sight). When I was preparing to get off active duty at 8 years I was looking at non pilot gigs. I did not leave the Navy to be an airline pilot. When an opportunity was dropped in my lap to fly for a commuter, I jumped at it. I told myself I would give it two years then give up. I built the time rapidly. The rest is history. When I interviewed my airline had a dual track process, one for civ pilots one for mil pilots. I went through the mill process even though I had a log book of civ time. It was apparent that my time in the Navy meant something. It wasn't 1200 hours of first pilot S-3 time, nor was it 1000 hours HAC time in the SH-2. But they clearly appreciated the fact that I had proved I knew my way around sophisticated aircraft systems, proved cool headed enough to operate around the boat and, albeit as Mission Commander, had demonstrated aerial leadership experience. Guys with helo time bring all that and a great deal more, like funky instrument flying skills. In the end though, the helo guys I knew spent nearly as much time in a commuter getting fixed wing time as I did. That certainly increases the investment in time and money. So, if a helo guy, or especially a NFO, is looking at the airlines these days I'd advise caution. Even in my case I had a very supportive well employed wife and a commuter job offer in my home town. If it were different I'd have not done it and would probably be marketing Apaches to foreign militaries. Oh, and like mentioned above, do the Reserve thing even if not flying, it really helps, from pay to networking to free group bitch sessions.
If this didn't add value to the thread because it has already been said, sorry I wasted your time. Next time I'll read up before posting.
I never set out to be an airline pilot, although I had all my tickets and a few hundred hours when I became a NFO (eye sight). When I was preparing to get off active duty at 8 years I was looking at non pilot gigs. I did not leave the Navy to be an airline pilot. When an opportunity was dropped in my lap to fly for a commuter, I jumped at it. I told myself I would give it two years then give up. I built the time rapidly. The rest is history. When I interviewed my airline had a dual track process, one for civ pilots one for mil pilots. I went through the mill process even though I had a log book of civ time. It was apparent that my time in the Navy meant something. It wasn't 1200 hours of first pilot S-3 time, nor was it 1000 hours HAC time in the SH-2. But they clearly appreciated the fact that I had proved I knew my way around sophisticated aircraft systems, proved cool headed enough to operate around the boat and, albeit as Mission Commander, had demonstrated aerial leadership experience. Guys with helo time bring all that and a great deal more, like funky instrument flying skills. In the end though, the helo guys I knew spent nearly as much time in a commuter getting fixed wing time as I did. That certainly increases the investment in time and money. So, if a helo guy, or especially a NFO, is looking at the airlines these days I'd advise caution. Even in my case I had a very supportive well employed wife and a commuter job offer in my home town. If it were different I'd have not done it and would probably be marketing Apaches to foreign militaries. Oh, and like mentioned above, do the Reserve thing even if not flying, it really helps, from pay to networking to free group bitch sessions.
If this didn't add value to the thread because it has already been said, sorry I wasted your time. Next time I'll read up before posting.
Really good stuff pertinent to NFO/Helo non-standard airline types. Thanks!