• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Speaking of A4s, I’ve been meaning to make this post for a while now:

On the very first page of this thread there was a discussion about challenge, rigor, and “big-boyness” of airline flying vs. military flying. Phrogdriver and Baconator/Bogeyspotter/Joboy were all discussing (arguing?) with A4s, simply unable to see A4’s POV that airline flying was the “peak” of airmanship. A4s asserted that the military is where you cut your teeth and have great adventure, but the airlines are the big leagues of flying.

I remember reading this a long time ago, and rereading it again a few years later, each time thinking that there’s no way that A4s is right about this. Now I’m still a youngin’ in the industry (5.5 years as of now), but I feel like I have enough knowledge to generate an informed opinion on the topic. I have flown the 737, A320, 757, and 767. In the airlines I have flown domestic and international. I have flown to S. America and Europe. I’ve done a little Pacific flying to Hawaii. I am NOT a Captain, and I know that matters. I am a sim instructor at my airline, and as such I am required to have “captain knowledge” and role play as a Captain during unbalanced training events. I fully acknowledge I haven’t been there and done that as a real Captain, but I do have some insights beyond just being a FO.

All this to say: my original position was reinforced. Airline flying is much easier and simpler than military flying. It’s not even close. That isn’t meant as a dick measuring statement. And I understand the nature of the missions at each place are different with different levels of risk. When deciding whether a transoceanic airline flight is more “big league” than launching off the boat, aerial refueling, joining your wingman, executing a tactical mission, then recovering aboard an aircraft carrier, I honestly don’t know how A4s took the position he did. And reading that first page again, that IS his position. He states that there’s just “something” about it. And that something is ineffable. A je ne sais quoi.

An airline career is excellent. It affords me a dream lifestyle, an awesome opportunity to raise my family with a fantastic QOL, and the mechanism to build true intergenerational wealth. I’d recommend it to anyone, and I’m so happy I did it. Ideally, I’d recommend airlines+reserve/ANG for the ultimate 1-2 punch. However, I’ve waited a long time to see if A4s knew something I didn’t. Turns out, he didn’t.
 

NoMoreMrNiceGuy

Well-Known Member
None
Speaking of A4s, I’ve been meaning to make this post for a while now:

On the very first page of this thread there was a discussion about challenge, rigor, and “big-boyness” of airline flying vs. military flying. Phrogdriver and Baconator/Bogeyspotter/Joboy were all discussing (arguing?) with A4s, simply unable to see A4’s POV that airline flying was the “peak” of airmanship. A4s asserted that the military is where you cut your teeth and have great adventure, but the airlines are the big leagues of flying.

I remember reading this a long time ago, and rereading it again a few years later, each time thinking that there’s no way that A4s is right about this. Now I’m still a youngin’ in the industry (5.5 years as of now), but I feel like I have enough knowledge to generate an informed opinion on the topic. I have flown the 737, A320, 757, and 767. In the airlines I have flown domestic and international. I have flown to S. America and Europe. I’ve done a little Pacific flying to Hawaii. I am NOT a Captain, and I know that matters. I am a sim instructor at my airline, and as such I am required to have “captain knowledge” and role play as a Captain during unbalanced training events. I fully acknowledge I haven’t been there and done that as a real Captain, but I do have some insights beyond just being a FO.

All this to say: my original position was reinforced. Airline flying is much easier and simpler than military flying. It’s not even close. That isn’t meant as a dick measuring statement. And I understand the nature of the missions at each place are different with different levels of risk. When deciding whether a transoceanic airline flight is more “big league” than launching off the boat, aerial refueling, joining your wingman, executing a tactical mission, then recovering aboard an aircraft carrier, I honestly don’t know how A4s took the position he did. And reading that first page again, that IS his position. He states that there’s just “something” about it. And that something is ineffable. A je ne sais quoi.

An airline career is excellent. It affords me a dream lifestyle, an awesome opportunity to raise my family with a fantastic QOL, and the mechanism to build true intergenerational wealth. I’d recommend it to anyone, and I’m so happy I did it. Ideally, I’d recommend airlines+reserve/ANG for the ultimate 1-2 punch. However, I’ve waited a long time to see if A4s knew something I didn’t. Turns out, he didn’t.
Great perspective. I wonder if his thoughts on this were informed from a steam-gauge, pre-GPS, mandatory reporting point mindset? Or maybe just a generational thing?
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Great perspective. I wonder if his thoughts on this were informed from a steam-gauge, pre-GPS, mandatory reporting point mindset? Or maybe just a generational thing?

Even if it was, I wouldn't change my post. There's no way that capturing radials on a steam HSI, or computing a fix over the ocean, is the same as launching a division of A4s to blow up some bridge with GP weapons, then fly home in formation to land on a ship.

I wouldn't even change my post if it was steam-gauge, pre-GPS airliners, vs modern military aircraft with all of the bells and whistles to assist.
 

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot

"The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??"​

Currently, yes. Money and QOL is awesome, right now. That could change overnight though, as it did 5 years ago. Is Part 121 the "'peak' of airmanship" ... not even close. In the last year I've flown with FOs less than 2 years from being a CFI (one recent FO just turned 25). No way in hell are they at the "'peak' of airmanship" as compared to folks flying tactical aircraft and helicopters in the military, IMO.

You know what Part 121 is to me though... (currently) it's a great post mil retirement gig where I'm making a lot of money (over $400k last year + mil retirement) with normally 14-16 days off a month. I don't even know what my boss, the chief pilot at my base, looks like and I've never talked to him. I don't have to check my emails unless I'm expecting something from the company which is rare. They never call me and even when crew scheduling calls me, I don't have to answer unless I want to. While the flying can be challenging at times (Mexico City comes to mind), it not the peak of airmanship.

S/F
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Even if it was, I wouldn't change my post. There's no way that capturing radials on a steam HSI, or computing a fix over the ocean, is the same as launching a division of A4s to blow up some bridge with GP weapons, then fly home in formation to land on a ship.

I wouldn't even change my post if it was steam-gauge, pre-GPS airliners, vs modern military aircraft with all of the bells and whistles to assist.
I agree with you entirely, but I think A4s was dreaming of the older “masters of the sky” era of transatlantic aviation with actual stewardesses and adults who thought pilots were something special, and he couldn’t let go of that.
 

Python

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I agree with you entirely, but I think A4s was dreaming of the older “masters of the sky” era of transatlantic aviation with actual stewardesses and adults who thought pilots were something special, and he couldn’t let go of that.
Maybe he was dreaming of that, albeit separately from this discussion.

But that’s not what I was gathering from his posts. His posts showed his view that military flying was JV and airline flying was varsity.
 

Odominable

PILOT HMSD TRACK FAIL
pilot

While the flying can be challenging at times (Mexico City comes to mind), it not the peak of airmanship.


S/F

Out of curiosity can you expand on this? Not the first time I’ve heard it. Is it the field elevation as it relates to performance? Language barrier? Arrival/departure structure? All the above?
 

SynixMan

Mobilizer Extraordinaire
pilot
Contributor
Out of curiosity can you expand on this? Not the first time I’ve heard it. Is it the field elevation as it relates to performance? Language barrier? Arrival/departure structure? All the above?

I've only been in and out of MEX a few times, but I go into Asia, Europe, Middle East, and others a ton.

Language barrier, weird radios (Karachi, seriously, buy new ones), going from cold/sea level to high/hot, Meters Ops in China, a STAR that's more of a suggestion, mandatory continuous descent profiles, long legs through WOCL where rest is tough to get, yada yada. Thankfully the crews are generally top notch, and there's at least two and sometimes three or four smart pilots up front.

Am I saying it's the hardest thing I've done? No. Helo world, cross cockpit Flight I DDG night DLQs or multi-ship low level missions in the desert were way harder. I learned a lot of basic airmanship and good decision making that I can apply now. And the harsh reality is you can love the shit out of military flying, but you can't do it forever.

I'll say, there is something to the notion of the amount of responsibility placed on a 121 pilot, even though we've put in place a myriad of laws, regulations, training, systems, and support to make the day to day easier. 50, 70, 120, 200+ souls and 100+ million of fuel and aluminum flying over extremely populated areas is no joke. I take professional pride it doing that job to the best of my ability, and enjoy getting compensated like a professional too.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Out of curiosity can you expand on this? Not the first time I’ve heard it. Is it the field elevation as it relates to performance? Language barrier? Arrival/departure structure? All the above?

I've probably done far less of it than Jarhead or others, but 1) they talk to all the other local traffic in Spanish, reducing SA, 2) you are frequently not in a radar environment and are expected to route yourself procedurally clear of terrain, and 3) they have a lot of rain storms coupled with ungrooved pavement, and there is a language barrier when you need to go somewhere else because of landing performance
 
Top