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The Tortured Lives of Interrogators
- Thread starter raptor10
- Start date
Don't be so hard on him. He has a book coming out this week after all. 
Like they said in the article. Interrogators of democratic nations always have problems. The writer really pissed me off. The British guy didn't appear to have any problems whatsoever with what he did until you read the writer's commentary without the guy's quotes. The writer clearly has an agenda. That gets me so friggin hot under the collar.
We really are turning into a nation of men raised by women.
Cate
Pretty much invincible
I'm a little bit sensitive about this issue, because I have a friend who just came back from Iraq, where he was an MP, and he's messed up. He's physically unharmed, but mentally/emotionally, he's just messed up, and (as much as he can or will articulate it) it's because of the things that he saw and the things that he had to do. And I don't mean that he did anything wrong or anything that he shouldn't have done - the things that were necessary to get the job done and to stay safe and to keep his men safe were also things that have been difficult for him to live with.
As a society, as a civilization, we have rules. You don't hurt people on purpose. You don't kill people. You don't take other people's things. We also have established exceptions to those rules; we've laid out circumstances in which it's okay to bypass those rules if it's absolutely necessary. If a guy's bearing down on you with an AK-47, you're allowed a waiver on the "don't kill people" rule. If a detainee has information that you need, information that could save lives, and he's not giving it up voluntarily, you get a waiver (to some extent) on the "don't hurt people on purpose" rule. But that doesn't mean that those rules don't go away, or that they aren't still important; it just means that, in some extreme circumstances, other rules are more important.
When we say things like, "We're turning into a nation of men raised by women," (and hello to the sexism, k thx, but we'll let that slide for now) or, "This civilization has been pussified," we're acting like it's a bad thing to recognize that yes, on the whole, you don't hurt people on purpose. That hurting people on purpose is the necessary exception, not the rule. Do we want to raise a generation of men who are so very, very manly that they don't recognize "don't hurt people on purpose" as a basic rule of society?
These guys are coming home and dealing with the conflict between what's necessary to complete the job there and what is societally acceptable here. That conflict is to be expected and shouldn't really surprise anyone. Instead of calling them pussies and telling them that they shouldn't feel bad for hurting/killing people, ("Hey, man, he was a terrorist! He hates your freedoms! What're you all broken up about, you pussy?") maybe we, who are sitting at home on our asses and not out there, could be a little more understanding.
I don't wish that kind of emotional turmoil on anyone, and we certainly don't benefit from interrogators who are so soft that they're not willing to invoke that "lives are at stake" exception and do what needs to be done. But nor do we benefit from someone who's willing to pretend that those basic rules don't exist at all and say, "Hey, he's not even human, so it really doesn't matter what I do." There is a middle ground, and these guys are the ones who have to walk on it.
As a society, as a civilization, we have rules. You don't hurt people on purpose. You don't kill people. You don't take other people's things. We also have established exceptions to those rules; we've laid out circumstances in which it's okay to bypass those rules if it's absolutely necessary. If a guy's bearing down on you with an AK-47, you're allowed a waiver on the "don't kill people" rule. If a detainee has information that you need, information that could save lives, and he's not giving it up voluntarily, you get a waiver (to some extent) on the "don't hurt people on purpose" rule. But that doesn't mean that those rules don't go away, or that they aren't still important; it just means that, in some extreme circumstances, other rules are more important.
When we say things like, "We're turning into a nation of men raised by women," (and hello to the sexism, k thx, but we'll let that slide for now) or, "This civilization has been pussified," we're acting like it's a bad thing to recognize that yes, on the whole, you don't hurt people on purpose. That hurting people on purpose is the necessary exception, not the rule. Do we want to raise a generation of men who are so very, very manly that they don't recognize "don't hurt people on purpose" as a basic rule of society?
These guys are coming home and dealing with the conflict between what's necessary to complete the job there and what is societally acceptable here. That conflict is to be expected and shouldn't really surprise anyone. Instead of calling them pussies and telling them that they shouldn't feel bad for hurting/killing people, ("Hey, man, he was a terrorist! He hates your freedoms! What're you all broken up about, you pussy?") maybe we, who are sitting at home on our asses and not out there, could be a little more understanding.
I don't wish that kind of emotional turmoil on anyone, and we certainly don't benefit from interrogators who are so soft that they're not willing to invoke that "lives are at stake" exception and do what needs to be done. But nor do we benefit from someone who's willing to pretend that those basic rules don't exist at all and say, "Hey, he's not even human, so it really doesn't matter what I do." There is a middle ground, and these guys are the ones who have to walk on it.
Yes, thank you Cate, I was thinking of posting something similar but you've done it.
Read On Killing. The truth is most people don't want to hurt/kill people and that is a GOOD thing. Even most people in the military don't really want to kill people, but they'll do it because it's their job. So it doesn't make me worry to see people upset about such things when they recall their experiences.
Read On Killing. The truth is most people don't want to hurt/kill people and that is a GOOD thing. Even most people in the military don't really want to kill people, but they'll do it because it's their job. So it doesn't make me worry to see people upset about such things when they recall their experiences.
I think the writer has an agenda, no doubt. But this article shows one thing - we are raised to believe that some things are wrong and that is what makes us human, unlike the animals we fight over there. That soldier has every right to feel the way he does, he's human.
If you think you could do those kinds of things to other people - be they enemy or not - and feel no pangs of guilt then I have no desire to share a cockpit with you. We are a nation of laws and morality. We sometimes fall short of our lofty beliefs, but it is our continued efforts to live up to those beliefs that makes us great.
Enhanced interrogation techniques are effective but some people, maybe most (hopefully), people who use them should find it disturbing on a personal level.
Torture is not macho or heroic.
Do you have a lot of experience with this? I'm not being sarcastic here, I don't know your background. Maybe you are a military interrogator. What is the basis of your statement?
If you think you could do those kinds of things to other people - be they enemy or not - and feel no pangs of guilt then I have no desire to share a cockpit with you. We are a nation of laws and morality. We sometimes fall short of our lofty beliefs, but it is our continued efforts to live up to those beliefs that makes us great.
Enhanced interrogation techniques are effective but some people, maybe most (hopefully), people who use them should find it disturbing on a personal level.
Torture is not macho or heroic.
Do you have a lot of experience with this? I'm not being sarcastic here, I don't know your background. Maybe you are a military interrogator. What is the basis of your statement?
skidz
adrenaline junky
This comment was not aimed specifically at the topic of torture, or any specific topic actually, but more at the society as a whole. Compare the civilians of today to the civilians that made this country what it is 50, 30, even 20 years ago and you will notice a huge difference in the tolerance and common sense of the people, as they have both decreased substantially in recent years.
Source? Were you even alive 50, 30 years ago?
skidz
adrenaline junky
Maybe you should pic up reading or listening to your elders that pass down information.
This is a stupid question to ask and it's skipping the actual point of the post to take a stab at my credibility instead. The times are changing and the people have changed an incredible amount over the past few decades. Our media is currently the equivelant of what the Japanese or Nazi media was torward us during WWII, now that is saying someing huge.
Very interesting read. I've wondered the impact of interrogation not only on the prisoner but the interrogator himself. You would think they would just create this fake personality, being good cop/bad cop if you will. I'm sure there is specialized training on interrogation methods and what not. I think it comes down to what works and what doesnt. Intelligence is very important. Always has. It saves lives, etc. Everyone will have a different opinion about it. If hanging a man upside-down and dunking him in a tank of pee will force him to confess information which will eventually save lives, then woo-rah. I trust our government has researched enough and found that "middle ground" which will save lives. It takes a special individual to be an interrogator. The mental toughness definitely needs to be on the A-game. Then again, we're all just human and as such can breakdown emotional when something such as torturing another human becomes to overwelming. I know I couldnt do it.
So because someone else is more evil than you makes it okay to be just a bit evil? Right is right and wrong is wrong. Chest-beating only clouds your judgement.
The argument that deviating from what we did 50 years ago is a sign of weakness is complete bunk. 50 years ago we believed it was acceptable to target civilian populations in order to "break the enemy's will". It is very difficult to construct a definition of terrorism that wouldn't include the strategic bombing campaigns of WWII. 40 years ago segregation was widespread. Just 20 years ago my alma mater accepted its first co-ed class. If you wish to defend torture, defend it on its merits, not because "it's how we've always done it".
It's very likely that the "huge difference in the tolerance and common sense of the people" has indeed changed – but in a direction quite different than you may think.
This summer will mark the 40th anniversary of the "Summer of Love". While a long and bitter war was raging in Southeast Asia (in which nearly 3.5 million would ultimately serve, and nearly 60,000 tragically would lose their lives), many thousands of hippies, war protestors, pot smokers, drug dealers, hangers-on, communists, and wannabees descended upon San Francisco that summer to do drugs and protest the war…among other things.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-summerlovemay28,1,5221486.story?coll=chi-news-hed
The late 60's were a bitter and tumultuous period for our country that included actual assassinations, fire-bombings, and frightening occasions of true anarchy in the streets. In fact there were repeated acts of terror bombings with fatalities nationwide by a number of ant-war groups, not to mention the shooting of protestors in Ohio. It was a time of Jane Fonda, sit-in's, violent protests, and many Ché admiring revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow our government. The turmoil was widespread , pervasive, and growing. It was a dangerous and most shameful period in our history.
Yes the times have changed, but fortunately much for the better. Thankfully the people of this nation are on average far improved, more mature and wiser today, than they were 40 years ago.
[Sorry for the threadjack. You all may now continue with torture. :sick_125:]
This is one of the dumbest comments I have seen in a while ... why should anyone study history beyond the time that they have been alive, after all, they were not there to see it, right?!?!