How much control does ALPA have over regional bubbas' salaries?
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This is sad: Republic Airlines will begin operating ERJ-190's for Midwest
- Thread starter whitesoxnation
- Start date
No, I completely understand.
You, however, don't 'understand' shit ...
A SCAB is only one rung above a draft dodger mentality on my personal ladder of character and honor ... and that ain't good.
You evidence a SCAB mentality.
zoomie08
Fast, Neat, Average...
I read somewhere that the pilots of that Colgan Air flight were making $17,000 and $22,000 a year. How is that possible? You can barely live on that. I knew regional pay was bad but, WOW. It is entirely possible I am missing something, but don't understand the incentive to work for that low pay.
Each individual pilot group within ALPA negotiates it's pay and work rules. ALPA national provides the experts (lawyers, accountants, etc.) and makes sure they stay within policy. There have been cases where ALPA National refused to approve the final contract as being but normally it rests with the intestinal fortitude of a particular airlines pilot group.
I fail to see how that is a SCAB mentality. These dudes are getting sold by the flight school/pilot factories that they're going to be flying with the big boys after a few years after flying with regionals. They are told the regionals are for getting their ticket punched by getting turbine and PIC time. I don't blame them for their ignorance on how it "really" is because I know just as many O-1s & O-2s just as ignorant on the military side of the house in regards to military aviation or their career track.
The fact of the matter is once they take out those loans and finish their training they have to start paying. As long as these companies are going to hire somebody with that few hours the cheap labor will be there.
Pure Bull Shit and the typical "I want it now" attitude of those coming out of the pilot mill schools. If they had done a little research before starting their school, they would know what they are getting into financially. These guys will bitch and moan about their pay and working conditions yet they bring it on themselves.
Not afford to strike? They can't afford not to.
My airline has been consistently profitable for 4 years, still is despite the current economy and is making large profits. They made record profits during their 2 years of bankruptcy before that. Yet they are trying to make us take pay and work rule cuts below that which we took during their sham bankruptcy. What the pilot's are asking for doesn't even get us back to our pre-bankruptcy level. You can bet when the strike vote comes I will be voting YES. Can I afford to strike with a $450k mortgage? No but I will. It's about the profession, standards and doing what is right.
I refused to work at a regional when I got furloughed in 2003 because of their shitty pay. I took non-flying jobs instead when needed. Until the advent of the pilot mill schools, regional airlines had fairly good pay. These new guys can do the same thing the old guys did - work a non-flying job while gaining flying experience through instructing, freight, etc. They'll earn more money too.
As A4s said, you make the same excused as every scab in history. It didn't wash when those airline pilots went on strike and it won't wash now.
I have no sympathy for a pilot mill guy crying about debt, no sympathy for a regional guy crying about his pay but unwilling to fight for himself, and absolutely no sympathy for a scab.
If you are willing to do as your post implies, stay the hell away from my airline. We don't need or want that type of person.
Commercial to be a FO. ATP to be a Captain. Many pilots are hired with less than ATP minimums at the regionals. Scary.
This has been going on long enough that anyone who doesn't realize what they are getting themselves into are probably too stupid to be flying commercially anyway. If you are not smart enough to properly research your career, then I don't want you in my cockpit.
And yes it is a scab mentality. It's the same excuse scabs use to try and justify their actions.
Hey I agree with that but these kids are getting sold from these pilot mill schools. Just like I said above, I know several Officers who did VERY little research before heading to military flight school.
With talking to my buddy hired by AE and now a CFI) the thought of a 250 hour FO up front with no military training scares the shit out of me. Part of the overall problem was the regionals hiring pilots with that little of experience.
No it's management and capitalism. Getting somebody else to do the same job for less...
The American way : )
Fuckin' A, Bruddah ... we've seen these guys before -- and they are SHUNNED by the rest of the Professionals, btw ... and we'll see 'em again.
The SCABs, shirkers, and self-centered will always be with us ... they are the bane of the airline pilot profession ... AND Naval Aviation.
I'm about two keystrokes away from some '- rep' for a couple of individuals -- you've shown your true colors. Mebbe I won't, 'cause it's Memorial Day Weekend.
Self Preservation
As someone relatively fresh out of the "pilot mill" I am surrounded by friends and classmates who are left with very few job options. I have been fortunate in always finding a way to stay out of the regionals, unfortunately many of those I have graduated with are not left with as many choices. These are not bad people; just guys who want to fly, but are stuck between a rock and a hard place. A lot of guys do not want to get a non-flying job after they just spent a fortune to get into the cockpit. Not saying they are right in their decision to accept lousy pay in order to stay behind the yoke instead of a desk, but this is the scenario causing the desperation.
$17,000 a year sucks, but these guys make it work. They get to make enough to keep up their loan payments, split an apartment with 5 guys and eat Ramen noodles; most importantly they get to keep flying, which is all many of them wanted in the first place. Many are ignorant of what they are doing to the rest of the pilots out there, but it has come down to self preservation. Unfortunately many do not have the space to care about the rest of the pilots out there when they are struggling just to keep their heads above their rising debt.
I completely agree that pilots need to unite and give the finger to the operations that pay so horribly low, but it is a breeding ground for scabs right now. Many of the freight, charter, and CFI jobs are just not available due to the reduction in flying over the past year. Young guys who would have had a place to build some descent experience in the past before joining the airlines are left with very few options. The natural ladder that was once around for pilots to work their way up to the airlines has crumbled leaving only an express elevator for those desperate enough to sell their souls and buddy fuck the rest of us in order to ascend to the cockpit of a regional.
A pilot strike may not be enough as there are always going to be people in desperate enough situations to accept the bottom of the barrel. There are more guilty parties in this than just the young guys fresh out of flight school desperate to get behind the stick. The aviation schools are going to keep suckering kids in with a false image of what the industry is really like. The schools all need to keep up enrollment in order to keep making money. They are going to keep feeding the problem because they only really care about self preservation of their business. Pumping the industry full of new pilots keeps them in business regardless of whether or not their graduates are getting good jobs or not.
The airlines are not going to change the problem until it becomes the most cost effective solution. The general public expects a few plane crashes now and then, and until the rising number of inexperienced pilots causes a reduction in safety noticeable to the everyday air traveler the regional’s can get away with hiring scabs. They too only care about self preservation. As long as they keep selling tickets at competitive prices and their accident rates are not too bad, they too could care less what happens to their pilots or who thier pilots are.
In desperate times like these it seems to have come down to self preservation of every party involved.
As someone relatively fresh out of the "pilot mill" I am surrounded by friends and classmates who are left with very few job options. I have been fortunate in always finding a way to stay out of the regionals, unfortunately many of those I have graduated with are not left with as many choices. These are not bad people; just guys who want to fly, but are stuck between a rock and a hard place. A lot of guys do not want to get a non-flying job after they just spent a fortune to get into the cockpit. Not saying they are right in their decision to accept lousy pay in order to stay behind the yoke instead of a desk, but this is the scenario causing the desperation.
$17,000 a year sucks, but these guys make it work. They get to make enough to keep up their loan payments, split an apartment with 5 guys and eat Ramen noodles; most importantly they get to keep flying, which is all many of them wanted in the first place. Many are ignorant of what they are doing to the rest of the pilots out there, but it has come down to self preservation. Unfortunately many do not have the space to care about the rest of the pilots out there when they are struggling just to keep their heads above their rising debt.
I completely agree that pilots need to unite and give the finger to the operations that pay so horribly low, but it is a breeding ground for scabs right now. Many of the freight, charter, and CFI jobs are just not available due to the reduction in flying over the past year. Young guys who would have had a place to build some descent experience in the past before joining the airlines are left with very few options. The natural ladder that was once around for pilots to work their way up to the airlines has crumbled leaving only an express elevator for those desperate enough to sell their souls and buddy fuck the rest of us in order to ascend to the cockpit of a regional.
A pilot strike may not be enough as there are always going to be people in desperate enough situations to accept the bottom of the barrel. There are more guilty parties in this than just the young guys fresh out of flight school desperate to get behind the stick. The aviation schools are going to keep suckering kids in with a false image of what the industry is really like. The schools all need to keep up enrollment in order to keep making money. They are going to keep feeding the problem because they only really care about self preservation of their business. Pumping the industry full of new pilots keeps them in business regardless of whether or not their graduates are getting good jobs or not.
The airlines are not going to change the problem until it becomes the most cost effective solution. The general public expects a few plane crashes now and then, and until the rising number of inexperienced pilots causes a reduction in safety noticeable to the everyday air traveler the regional’s can get away with hiring scabs. They too only care about self preservation. As long as they keep selling tickets at competitive prices and their accident rates are not too bad, they too could care less what happens to their pilots or who thier pilots are.
In desperate times like these it seems to have come down to self preservation of every party involved.
Calling high school juniors stupid for not having your industry experience is "stupid." Think the resources available to your slightly above-average 17 year-old: the internet (where all pilot salary lists are like $90,000/yr), a HS guidance counselor who thinks all pilots fly 747's and make $250k, and if they're lucky, a relative working for an airline to tell them how it really is. The pilot mill schools have an easy sell when recruiting students who've grown up with that burning desire to fly, and if not for the military route, they are very limited in their options. I know a lot of my fellow students have the goal of flying corporate at some point, but they really have no idea how to get there besides flying for peanuts. I had this mindset at one point, but once I did my research as HAL suggests, it was time to get out of that situation.
I respect the opinions of those with wings here a great deal, but this guy is right. Looking back I was a moron when I was 17 (and will probably say I was a moron at 22 when I'm 27). When I was 17 the only thing I thought "collective bargaining" applied to was the MLB player's union.
I went to a school much like his and what he says is true. I remember going to orientation at one and the guy was promising $400,000 salaries... in 1990 dollars! Then, once your a student there all you hear is, "oh, it's going to get better, this happens all the time, blah blah." And this is coming from professors who used to be airline pilots... so what is the ambitious 18 year old supposed to think. ASA even sent a representative to our school as a "guest speaker." True, the real reason he was there was to tell everyone to stay in school.... because ASA has (maybe "had" now) a bridge program to hire students who payed to take a CRJ simulator course... so they're getting cheap pilots with that experience. These shenanigans continue... even after our school fired all their part time instructors.
Then you graduate with bills and your F'd. Burn the schools that sell this garbage and take advantage of people, not the guys who aren't even old enough to buy a beer. It's like saying Michael Vick's dogs were bad, even though they knew nothing else except fighting. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have professionals willing to give the skinny on what the real deal is (and for your time, I am grateful).