i had set up a rule to move any email from the CO's secretary right into the garbage.
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Today's Navy or your Grandfather's
- Thread starter wink
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i had set up a rule to move any email from the CO's secretary right into the garbage.
Why do I think I missed all the fun in API?
But while I would like to imagine it was like this:
Seeing the average "female" in the the Navy, it was probably more like this:
Nice
I don't know whether it was fair or not, I could care less. Running an obstacle course has nothing to do with flying anyway. More about testing determination in a physical sense. Yes, there were guys who couldn't make it over the 12 foot or 8 foot wall or finish the course under the alloted time.
Yeah, I did too. I'm back here again, but they deleted my old acct so I have to make a new rule. I guess the transient rate is so high that after 1 month of no activity they delete your acct.
Roger that: but in "Grandpa's Navy" they were dropped from the program and were either sent home to be drafted and sent to a small country in SE Asia or they remained in the Navy and were sent to the Fleet, depending on their procurement source.
EVERYONE in NAVAIRTRACOM had to get over the walls - and repeatedly, as we didn't run the O-Course or C-Course just once.
No walls = No Wings of Gold ... and no help from anyone getting over -- do it or die. Now that is what I'd call "fair".
addendum for the guy who asked "where is/was it" : the old O-Course used to be down on the beach, just past the last hangars and quays to the west and toward the Mustin Beach O'Club, if I remember correctly . Maybe just east of the O'Club parking lot ??? And it seems that they were 16 foot (first wall - w/ropes) and 9 foot walls (?) -- perhaps they were rebuilt and "shortened"???
Or maybe that was the UDT/SEAL O-Course @ Coronado (?)-- anyway, we had to run them both. We weren't "tough guys" ... we were just guys doing "tough things".
No. just has to do with being fit to survive and evade in hostile terrain. And I agree with A4s. What is fair about a guy one year that gets dropped from the program because he can't get over the wall, and then the next year they get a pass on the wall? Or worse, the guy gets dropped and the female gets commissioned. Call it an O course or C course, I believe it is vital training on many levels. And it should be fair, and consistent.
The paracourse... is like a mini obstacle course by the Officers Club on the right. There are several events each of which present a "par" from streching, to situps, and a balace beam. Dont go expecting anything like huge walls or rope climbs.
I do like the long trail run that goes off it and try to do that twice a week. Which is NOT the same thing as the trail that you run the prt in API on. That trail is about 1/2 mile long and next to the pool/gym/track.
So when exactly did the Obstacle Course go away? It was still there when I went through in 1996 and the two walls were still there too. I actually failed the first time, I didn't take it seriously enough. I actually practiced and then passed the second time around. I think it was there when I went back in 2000 but not a requirement anymore.
There was a lot of hate and discontent on the part of the USAF studs that were going through in 1996, they just started sending all of the AF Nav stud's through in April and I got there in June. That discontent went up the chain because several Nav stud's failed out because of the O course, a new thing for the USAF (messed their projected production numbers). I think that was the final impetus to getting rid of the requirement that you pass O course.
When we had our final outbrief with the CO the training wing, or whatever they called it, in Randolph AFB after panel nav school he asked some of the USAF studs what they thought of the Navy training. My USAF classmates were among the first to have gone through the entire Navy program, from API through primary. That unleashed a torrent of complaints, first and foremost among them was about the swimming......oh, the agony! That is when the derisive comments started from the Navy students........
Another was the selection process (another story), the grading process (every flight counted, not just checkrides) and finally the O course. While it got nowhere near the amount of complaints as the swimming, it still got a lot. The USAF O-6 and O-5's listened carefully and said they would pass these serious concerns up the chain, which was not too far since the 4 star AETC commander was about 2 blocks away.
When I went back through flight training 3 years later a lot of things were quite different, ironically incorporating many of the changes that the USAF studs had complained about 3 years earlier. Hmmmmm......
There was a lot of hate and discontent on the part of the USAF studs that were going through in 1996, they just started sending all of the AF Nav stud's through in April and I got there in June. That discontent went up the chain because several Nav stud's failed out because of the O course, a new thing for the USAF (messed their projected production numbers). I think that was the final impetus to getting rid of the requirement that you pass O course.
When we had our final outbrief with the CO the training wing, or whatever they called it, in Randolph AFB after panel nav school he asked some of the USAF studs what they thought of the Navy training. My USAF classmates were among the first to have gone through the entire Navy program, from API through primary. That unleashed a torrent of complaints, first and foremost among them was about the swimming......oh, the agony! That is when the derisive comments started from the Navy students........
Another was the selection process (another story), the grading process (every flight counted, not just checkrides) and finally the O course. While it got nowhere near the amount of complaints as the swimming, it still got a lot. The USAF O-6 and O-5's listened carefully and said they would pass these serious concerns up the chain, which was not too far since the 4 star AETC commander was about 2 blocks away. When I went back through flight training 3 years later a lot of things were quite different, ironically incorporating many of the changes that the USAF studs had complained about 3 years earlier. Hmmmmm......
^^^ Yeah, and the kicker now compared to that story is the AF dudes still do swimming, but they come back for it after all of the rest of their training is done.
That makes sense, instead of swimming when your actually in API, take the day off and then we'll spend more money to send you back and swim later on....
That makes sense, instead of swimming when your actually in API, take the day off and then we'll spend more money to send you back and swim later on....
This thread has certainly brought back some old memories.
One thing I have noticed is that these conversation are not much different than what I heard in the 70's countless times from old salts.....'this ain't my Navy anymore'.
No doubt you youngsters will be saying it in a few years.
One thing I have noticed is that these conversation are not much different than what I heard in the 70's countless times from old salts.....'this ain't my Navy anymore'.
No doubt you youngsters will be saying it in a few years.
Roger that: but in "Grandpa's Navy" they were dropped from the program and were either sent home to be drafted and sent to a small country in SE Asia or they remained in the Navy and were sent to the Fleet, depending on their procurement source.
EVERYONE in NAVAIRTRACOM had to get over the walls - and repeatedly, as we didn't run the O-Course or C-Course just once.
No walls = No Wings of Gold ... and no help from anyone getting over -- do it or die. Now that is what I'd call "fair".
addendum for the guy who asked "where is/was it" : the old O-Course used to be down on the beach, just past the last hangars and quays to the west and toward the Mustin Beach O'Club, if I remember correctly . Maybe just east of the O'Club parking lot ??? And it seems that they were 16 foot (first wall - w/ropes) and 9 foot walls (?) -- perhaps they were rebuilt and "shortened"???
We weren't "tough guys" ... we were just guys doing "tough things".
Maybe it was a 16 foot wall? It had two ropes, then you ran and jumped the 8 foot wall. Either way, I think those guys who couldn't climb it got time out or something. In truth, if you didn't pass the O course, be it within the time limit (that includes the walls), you were gone. Lets face it, that O course wasn't that hard. I was 215lbs at the time (I'm still 215lbs but for some reason, just not quite as fit....that whole getting older thing that is well known to you A4's :icon_tong) and it certainly wasn't easy for anyone over 200lbs yet I and many heavier guys made it under the time. As long as one is healthy (no bad knees, ankles, shoulders), any young male in their early 20's should be able to pass it. Actually, I fractured my big toe on the 8 foot wall when I ran it. I remember kicking it hard when I jumped it but didn't quite feel the pain until finished. Ended up with a hairline fracture of the bone.
Well, the will to survive might help on that one. A little SERE school training in Maine, running at altitude will show just how in or out of shape one is. In my case, it was out of shape with a vengence. I assume the O or C course never meant much being it's now gone. Not sure if it's done somewhere else but it's not there now. So much for being fit to survive.
The O course was still there when I did OCS in the fall of 01, but was not part of OCS any longer. It'd been shut down due to lead based paint. Our DI didn't much care about that and took us there anyhow. We each got to run in twice and it was a blast (and totally exhausting) but to my knowledge no other class has run it since. After the storm it may not even be there and with OCS now up in RI... who knows.
It should be part of OCS just as boxing (or some form of martial art) should be part of API.
But then again, we wouldn't want O's who know how to kick ass, they might get into fights out in town and hurt somebody...
It should be part of OCS just as boxing (or some form of martial art) should be part of API.
But then again, we wouldn't want O's who know how to kick ass, they might get into fights out in town and hurt somebody...
And that's why as a Div O and DH you had your little green booked tucked in your back pocket.
For my purposes I'll go with the transition from the Grumman biplane fighters to the first monoplanes. The days of the Langley, Enterprise, Yorktown and Lexington as the time of Naval Aviation to be my favorite to have served.