burningfeathers
Reading the grout jokes
Apparently its a good time not be a SWO: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/03/navy_horner_swoculture_031509/
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That's certainly how it seemed to be about 15 years ago, when I did my month aboard the Camden. And I'm guessing it was that way long before I got there. That article isn't talking about the specific state of today's SWO culture--it's talking about the general culture that has, over the decades, produced an atmosphere not conducive to success.
I think everyones beating on them because they've been the victims/perpetrators of several high vis incidents of late. My first reaction when I saw this this morning was uh oh...what SWO daddies head is gonna roll for this one?
SWO...the beatings will continue until morale improves!
Amphibs don't have sonar. And you'd also have to be active the whole time, not normal ops, and would probably piss Iran off.
Submerged subs don't have comms with surface ships that don't have underwater comms systems....
Not putting the blame on the sub specifically, but blaming an amphib watch team for not avoiding a collision with a SUBMERGED submarine on the midwatch is straight out crazy.
Personally, going by the depth of the SoH vs the height of a SSN vs the draft of typical tanker traffic, I'm interested to know how the bubbleheads do SoH transits if it's not an OPSEC issue.
I just think that since this happened about 48 hours ago, it's premature to blame watchstanders or the COs, especially in such a public format. I think that we don't know enough yet. It's not a sympathy issue; it's a respect issue. It would be equally unfair (and I think against site rules) to come on here and jest about a recent aviation incident. But that's just my opinion, I'm not going (or trying) to tell everyone what they can and cannot say.
On another note, I've been through the SoH 4 times, and we sat in them for several weeks in 2003. Probably the most stressful chokepoint I've sailed. Military ships, oil tankers, speedboats, Iranians querying...it's a mess. It's amazing there aren't more collisions.
On another note, I've been through the SoH 4 times, and we sat in them for several weeks in 2003. Probably the most stressful chokepoint I've sailed. Military ships, oil tankers, speedboats, Iranians querying...it's a mess. It's amazing there aren't more collisions.
from what I hear from my bubbas that I'm currently serving with that have come from other communities....there are more than a few individuals that get their gold dolphins and waterwings without properly being able to do a mo-board. One guy I know is a SWO and did an exchange tour with the Brits or Canadians for a few months on a FFG. He said that he thought his seamanship among his fellow J.O. SWOs was above average. He said quite candidly that once he was on board the foreign boat he was quite humbled by his lack of seamanship skills. I believe there is a recent edition of Naval Institute Proceedings that addresses SWO training deficiencies. The submariner community on the other hand is sooo nuke engineering centric, (thanks to Rickover...goodbye Eugene Fluckey) that JO tactics and weaponeering knowledges have really suffered as well.
Lobster
Well-Known Member
Villanelle- Karma can sometimes be quite unpleasant. As I think a short time back- there was a recent period of "unpleasant/unforeseen" incidents in MIL Aviation.
If this was a case of an excercise gone bad-so be it. If it was a case of mutually distracted bridges that's another thing. Whatever the reason- I think it serves as a heads up to SWO's and NUKEs to pay attention to the big picture as Priority#1. There is nothing worse than seeing a JOOD and OOD with their heads in the Radar Repeater hoods, QMOW looking at the chart and CIC blabbering over the Bitchbox about whatever- and no management looking into the horizon when other ships are around. Unlike some of our aviation counterparts- there are usually MANY SWO Eyes on a unit watching events unfold. That's why I liked the SWO life. Multiple people have your back if they're even 80% competent. In fact, I can just about assure you that at some point in your SWO career you will either lose the situational picture or be close to it in a bad way and be on the verge of a major FU and your fellow SWO counterparts will chime in and rock your world just prior to being in extremis. (extremis is the point of NOT being able to avoid a collision/grounding no matter what you do to avoid it). Yes- I've been near it on the receiving end as well as the transmitting end.
Just saying- SWO is very much a team sport and "things" that shouldn't be an issue, can almost always become an issue if you and your partners don't keep a vigilant eye on them until they are no longer a threat.
If you're on watch and you see something that doesn't look right- Speak Up! It's better to have everyone on the bridge tell you you're all wet rather than say nothing and then something truly bad happens. Rarely do vessels collide and all parties testify that "Hey I didn't see it coming".
Any JAGS disagree?
If this was a case of an excercise gone bad-so be it. If it was a case of mutually distracted bridges that's another thing. Whatever the reason- I think it serves as a heads up to SWO's and NUKEs to pay attention to the big picture as Priority#1. There is nothing worse than seeing a JOOD and OOD with their heads in the Radar Repeater hoods, QMOW looking at the chart and CIC blabbering over the Bitchbox about whatever- and no management looking into the horizon when other ships are around. Unlike some of our aviation counterparts- there are usually MANY SWO Eyes on a unit watching events unfold. That's why I liked the SWO life. Multiple people have your back if they're even 80% competent. In fact, I can just about assure you that at some point in your SWO career you will either lose the situational picture or be close to it in a bad way and be on the verge of a major FU and your fellow SWO counterparts will chime in and rock your world just prior to being in extremis. (extremis is the point of NOT being able to avoid a collision/grounding no matter what you do to avoid it). Yes- I've been near it on the receiving end as well as the transmitting end.
Just saying- SWO is very much a team sport and "things" that shouldn't be an issue, can almost always become an issue if you and your partners don't keep a vigilant eye on them until they are no longer a threat.
If you're on watch and you see something that doesn't look right- Speak Up! It's better to have everyone on the bridge tell you you're all wet rather than say nothing and then something truly bad happens. Rarely do vessels collide and all parties testify that "Hey I didn't see it coming".
Any JAGS disagree?
Is there ever a good time to be a SWO???
Yes there is.
That's seems to be the consensus from those who've spent time with the Europeans...USNA guys who had NATO exchange instructors on the YPs say they were far better shiphandlers.
Having said that, it might be worth looking at WHY they're better shiphandlers.
One reason might be that they break down by specialties. Early on, the SWO/sub guys figure out if they're going to be Engineers, Combat Systems types, or Tactical/Shiphandling types. Only the last bunch are on a CO pipeline.
Whereas in our Navy, there was a point when we took non Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW) qualified LTs and made them Chief Engineers (CHENG) on CRUDES ships.
Post Collision image
090320-N-9999X-935 PERSIAN GULF (March 20, 2009) The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Hartford (SSN 768) is underway Friday, March 20, 2009 in the Persian Gulf after a collision with the amphibious transport dock ship USS New Orleans (LPD 18). Hartford sustained damage to her sail, but the propulsion plant of the nuclear-powered submarine was unaffected by this collision. (U.S. Navy photo)
090320-N-9999X-935 PERSIAN GULF (March 20, 2009) The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Hartford (SSN 768) is underway Friday, March 20, 2009 in the Persian Gulf after a collision with the amphibious transport dock ship USS New Orleans (LPD 18). Hartford sustained damage to her sail, but the propulsion plant of the nuclear-powered submarine was unaffected by this collision. (U.S. Navy photo)
090320-N-XXXXX-001 PERSIAN GULF (March 20, 2009) The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Hartford (SSN 768) is underway in the Persian Gulf after a collision with the amphibious transport dock ship USS New Orleans (LPD 18). Hartford sustained damage to her sail, but the propulsion plant of the nuclear-powered submarine was unaffected by this collision. (U.S. Navy photo/Released)
D_Rob
Lead LTJG
The Navy has released official photos of the Hartford coming into port.
090321-N-9909C-848 BAHRAIN (March 21, 2009) The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Hartford (SSN 768) pulls into Mina Salman pier in Bahrain where U.S. Navy engineers and inspection teams will asses and evaluate damage that resulted from a collision with the amphibious transport dock ship USS New Orleans (LPD 18) in the Strait of Hormuz March 20. Overall damage to both ships is being evaluated. The incident remains under investigation. Hartford is deployed to the U.S. 5th fleet area of responsibility to support maritime security operations. (U.S. Navy photo by Cmdr. Jane Campbell/Released)
090321-N-9909C-848 BAHRAIN (March 21, 2009) The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Hartford (SSN 768) pulls into Mina Salman pier in Bahrain where U.S. Navy engineers and inspection teams will asses and evaluate damage that resulted from a collision with the amphibious transport dock ship USS New Orleans (LPD 18) in the Strait of Hormuz March 20. Overall damage to both ships is being evaluated. The incident remains under investigation. Hartford is deployed to the U.S. 5th fleet area of responsibility to support maritime security operations. (U.S. Navy photo by Cmdr. Jane Campbell/Released)