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USNA--Change Course?

Got this from neptunuslex.com...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/annearundel/bal-ar.curriculum02feb02,0,50943.story?coll=bal-local-arundel

Wanted to see what you think...The world probably doesn't need to be flooded with still more poli sci-type grads (I'm one myself; we're everywhere). If the focus moved away from engineering/hard science at the academies, would our military/innovation capabilities suffer, or would the benefits reaped on the ground through more 'int'l relations' offset it?
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
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Got this from neptunuslex.com...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/lo...m02feb02,0,50943.story?coll=bal-local-arundel

Wanted to see what you think...The world probably doesn't need to be flooded with still more poli sci-type grads (I'm one myself; we're everywhere). If the focus moved away from engineering/hard science at the academies, would our military/innovation capabilities suffer, or would the benefits reaped on the ground through more 'int'l relations' offset it?
I would argue that while this is an important discussion, Ensigns and Second Lieutenants who graduate from the Academy aren't at the forefront of military innovation. They're at the forefront of driving ships, learning reactors, leading Marines or sitting in A-pool. Outnumbered by ROTC types and OCS types to whom this curriculum doesn't apply.

That said, from what little I know of it, I have always found the Academy's insistence on putting every student through a hard science curriculum odd. Nothing like giving your students a B.S. in English. Maybe nukes might have a different story having to live and breathe nuclear physics and the steam cycle, but as a pilot I haven't used calculus-based physics since I got a B- in it at Penn State. It more or less fits into the "nice to know" department behind how to shoot an instrument approach or land on the boat. That said, though my IST background seems to be giving me some insight into some parts of the Prowlerverse, some of the most valuable time I spent in college was in electives. One of the reasons I quit engineering was hearing a prof at student orientation say "don't worry about electives; we've got them all figured out for you." So I would have graduated with a boatload of techincal knowhow and precious little people knowhow.

I was lucky enough to attend Penn State while they had a professor teaching courses on Islam (He's since shifted to Oregon). Took the first one as an elective after the prof came to speak to our ROTC lab. Liked it so well I fit another of his courses and 2 semesters of Arabic in. I'd come within a hairsbreadth of getting out in 3 1/2 years but couldn't quite swing it, so I had credits to play with.

Given the current world environment, it was time well spent. Given the ideology of al-Qaeda, the Iranian mullahs, and other extremists, I can listen to their rants and get an idea of why they think the way they do. Conversely, when some right-wing pundit gets up and starts ranting about how Islam is a religion of hate and Muslims are all a bunch of maniacs, I know he's completely and utterly full of shit.

Undergrad is a rare opportunity; never again will you be able to pick some of the brains which are running around campus with as much frequency. So I would argue that the courseload of a future military officer needs to have a foot in both worlds. The technical stuff prepares you for having more techincal stuff thrown at you while earning your warfare quals. But war is the continuation of politics by other means, so language proficiency and humanities are just as vitally important.

*steps off soapbox*
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
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Not an academy grad, but an excellent, thought provoking post - thanks!
 

The Chief

Retired
Contributor
The latest issue of the Proceedings' (Naval Institute) has an interesting article, written by another retarted ops retired Master Chief on this subject. Gist is to make USNA the "School of the Navy", or something to that effect. Interesting read.
 

Brett327

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So I would argue that the courseload of a future military officer needs to have a foot in both worlds.

Couldn't agree more. To pile on a bit, I took a course on Islam and another in the history of the Middle East. The insight into the current geo-political situation which they provided was immeasurable. I believe the NROTC folks here now have to take one of them to graduate/commission and it will serve them better than the calculus they all lament.

Brett
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
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Contributor
I'd be apt to agree, to an extent. I would say that the Academy needs to put more emphasis language, but I think that having that technical background is a good thing. The humanities majors get their choices for electives and course work, but at the same time have a decent background in technical work as well.

In my opinion, I would think that this should branch out to include all parts of officer accession, to include the Academy/NROTC/etc. The Academy graduates a portion of the officers but not all, so what point would it be to have an Academy guy have a good background in Afghany culture but the NROTC guy one bunk over doesn't have a clue about it? I'd say it'd be a bit of a disconnect.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
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Super Moderator
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In my opinion, I would think that this should branch out to include all parts of officer accession, to include the Academy/NROTC/etc. The Academy graduates a portion of the officers but not all, so what point would it be to have an Academy guy have a good background in Afghany culture but the NROTC guy one bunk over doesn't have a clue about it? I'd say it'd be a bit of a disconnect.

I would tend to agree, but USNA gets even more indepth than NROTC, including I believe basic electrical engineering and such (Academy guys please correct me if I'm talking out the wrong orifice). NROTC just requires 2 semesters of calc and two of calc-based physics. And no "cultural" requirements beyond what is required by the university.

Personally I think we would be better served overall if they made NROTC more like the Academy and the Academy more like NROTC. But that's getting into another argument.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
1 year of calc, 1 year calc-based physics, 1 semester CS, 1 semester of something akin to "DoD studies" (recent wars, int'l relations, etc. etc.).
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
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Our former CNO (ADM Clark) wanted USNA to be at a minimum 60% Engineering and 40% Humm/SS majors in each graduating class. Reason was our weapons systems are getting more complicated and we need more engineers amongst our officer ranks.
 

Brett327

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Our former CNO (ADM Clark) wanted USNA to be at a minimum 60% Engineering and 40% Humm/SS majors in each graduating class. Reason was our weapons systems are getting more complicated and we need more engineers amongst our officer ranks.

I believe that to be a faulty premise. I can't speak for the SWO world from which he comes, but we both know that there's no correlation between engineering knowledges and the ability to operate complex aviation weapons systems. We need engineers to design and build these systems, not to operate or maintain them.

Brett
 

fc2spyguy

loving my warm and comfy 214 blanket
pilot
Contributor
Our former CNO (ADM Clark) wanted USNA to be at a minimum 60% Engineering and 40% Humm/SS majors in each graduating class. Reason was our weapons systems are getting more complicated and we need more engineers amongst our officer ranks.

This seems like an odd statement to me, based on my background. Now with the exception of pilots, what officers are actually operating the weapons systems in the fleet? Every weapon system on the ship was operated by an enlisted Sailor that received anywhere between a year to two years of training in that weapon system. I believe subs are the same way with FTs and MTs? I realize that the officers are tactically employing the weapons, but the actual operation is done by the Sailors. So, how would having an engineering degree assist in the tactical employment of weapons?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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I believe that to be a faulty premise. I can't speak for the SWO world from which he comes, but we both know that there's no correlation between engineering knowledges and the ability to operate complex aviation weapons systems. We need engineers to design and build these systems, not to operate or maintain them.

Brett

I did not do the math and science requirements in NROTC (College Program)and I did just as well, if not better, than my compatriots who did. We made a lot of fun at the engineering majors in my squadrons, things did not always make sense to them in Naval Aviation really grated at them and they tried to find out the reason behind such things. Or they would try an argue why we should do somethign different during a malfunction because it made engineering sense (Bucket comes to mind Brett....), not realizing that it was the Navy and things often did not make sense.......sometimes the 'I believe' button worked pretty well :D .
 

robav8r

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I believe that to be a faulty premise. I can't speak for the SWO world from which he comes, but we both know that there's no correlation between engineering knowledges and the ability to operate complex aviation weapons systems. We need engineers to design and build these systems, not to operate or maintain them.

Brett
It's funny how the different RAG's go back and forth on totally in-depth, systems knowledge and then to the other extreme, just being a good tactician and operator. See this in the VP community a lot. Personally, agree with Brett here (I think), knowing the software and tactics and procedures will serve you MUCH better than being able to memorize or reverse engineer every box and electrical wire in a RADAR or sensor system.
 

Brett327

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Super Moderator
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Bucket comes to mind

You had to go and ruin my day by reminding me of Bucket (AKA Stompy, AKA unsafe at any speed (or altitude), AKA wrinkled douche-bag, AKA I'm too fat to strap into the seat so I'll write MAFs on three different jets saying the lap belts are too small). Can you believe that guy is at TPS? I hope they FNAEB him there for cause. :icon_rage

Brett
 
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