USNA--Change Course?

[BlackBearHockey]

It appears to be that in the fleet overall (I don't know for a fact, but assuming), it all pretty much evens out. I know people at the academy in technical majors, but I know a lot more NROTC students in liberal arts majors. Personally, I'm a history major and am finishing my Calc/Phys requirements over the summer, and if I didn't have to take them, I would probably take a few non-descript physics labs to orient myself with physics. I understand that you need to have a good grasp of how things work, and if you do "X" you'll get "Y" reaction, but I don't think you need to complicate anything more than that.

I haven't had any aviation training, so forgive/correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, they teach you pretty much everything you need to know. If you can be a pilot with a philosophy degree, you don't have to take aero engineering if you don't want to.

 

[Flash]

You had to go and ruin my day by reminding me of Bucket (AKA Stompy, AKA unsafe at any speed (or altitude), AKA wrinkled douche-bag, AKA I'm too fat to strap into the seat so I'll write MAFs on three different jets saying the lap belts are too small). Can you believe that guy is at TPS? I hope they FNAEB him there for cause. :icon_rage

Brett

He actually got into TPS??!!! He talked about how he wanted to go there from day one in 128, made a bad name for himself because of that.......I will also remember him as the only Powler guy I know that pulled the power back to get more flgiht time. That stopped after the about the third time, the XO chewed him out after one of the hinges mentioned it to him.

All I have to do is think of him as an example why a technical/engineering degree doesn't make one a good aviator.......

 

[robav8r]

You had to go and ruin my day by reminding me of Bucket (AKA Stompy, AKA unsafe at any speed (or altitude), AKA wrinkled douche-bag, AKA I'm too fat to strap into the seat so I'll write MAFs on three different jets saying the lap belts are too small). Can you believe that guy is at TPS? I hope they FNAEB him there for cause. :icon_rage

Brett

Brett - did someone touch a nerve ???

 

[MrSaturn]

Got this from neptunuslex.com...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/lo...m02feb02,0,50943.story?coll=bal-local-arundel

Wanted to see what you think...

Glad you asked :icon_tong

I think baltimore sun like writing articles that show the Academy in a negative light and like to make mountains out of mole hills. There is a little bias. But yes there was always discussions about this.

An accepted fallacy is that humanities are easier at the academy(Poli Sci to Fly!) which create an imbalance in our major system. What Admiral Clark wanted was something like 30% engineer(aka group 1) 30% sciences(aka group 2) 40% humanities (aka group 3). It was about 40% (group 1&2) 60% (group 3) when I graduated. Several of my teachers were commenting that the classes after ours were showing an even bigger split. So really Admiral Clark just wants to balance it out a bit. He is not saying humanities are less important.

I was a computer science major (group 2) and I took History and English courses as my free electives (Year of english and world history required, some Humanties electives are also required, then you get to pick a few electives with no restrictions.) The Academy already requires that you have a well rounded education both technical and in humanities. So you have a foot in both worlds. However, the term jack of all trades master of none comes to mind. So the challenge is that in 4 years you produce an officer whose education is well rounded yet specialized, a tough balancing act. In order to have an officer pool with a wide range of specialties, the Academy must have a diverse range of graduates to meet the needs of the Navy.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

This seems like an odd statement to me, based on my background. Now with the exception of pilots, what officers are actually operating the weapons systems in the fleet? Every weapon system on the ship was operated by an enlisted Sailor that received anywhere between a year to two years of training in that weapon system. I believe subs are the same way with FTs and MTs? I realize that the officers are tactically employing the weapons, but the actual operation is done by the Sailors. So, how would having an engineering degree assist in the tactical employment of weapons?

SWO's, like Submariners (and unlike their aviation counterparts), not only employ the weapons systems on ships/subs, but they also manage the operation of the propulsion plants. The two ARE NOT separate. While you can get away with knowing the plant inside and out and not having a clue about weapons employment tactics, it doesn't work the other way.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Glad you asked :icon_tong

I think baltimore sun like writing articles that show the Academy in a negative light and like to make mountains out of mole hills. There is a little bias. But yes there was always discussions about this.

An accepted fallacy is that humanities are easier at the academy(Poli Sci to Fly!) which create an imbalance in our major system. What Admiral Clark wanted was something like 30% engineer(aka group 1) 30% sciences(aka group 2) 40% humanities (aka group 3). It was about 40% (group 1&2) 60% (group 3) when I graduated. Several of my teachers were commenting that the classes after ours were showing an even bigger split. So really Admiral Clark just wants to balance it out a bit. He is not saying humanities are less important.

I was a computer science major (group 2) and I took History and English courses as my free electives (Year of english and world history required, some Humanties electives are also required, then you get to pick a few electives with no restrictions.) The Academy already requires that you have a well rounded education both technical and in humanities. So you have a foot in both worlds. However, the term jack of all trades master of none comes to mind. So the challenge is that in 4 years you produce an officer whose education is well rounded yet specialized, a tough balancing act. In order to have an officer pool with a wide range of specialties, the Academy must have a diverse range of graduates to meet the needs of the Navy.

I think ROTC has to have similar percentages. I seem to recall freshman year them saying they want 2/3 of all ROTC people to be engineers or hard sciences. Then again of the 13 people in my ROTC class 5 of us are not engineers (me included). I understand why they want us to take calc and physics, but I do not see how being a chemical engineer will make me a better NFO.

 

[HalfBreed]

I think its hard to find a middle ground. Both engineer and humanities majors have different strengths and weaknesses. Only so much can be taught in 4 years at the academy, as it is we tend to pile on more credits per semester than most college students. You will either end up with an officer who has a general grasp on both engineering and humanity subjects or an officer who knows something really well in only one area of study. Personally I think it is better to have lots of "experts" in different fields so that we can draw from our different experiences. This way at least someone knows the answer or the topic at hand. I also believe that as officers, professional reading is important. We should seek to understand the nature of the conflicts we are in and have been in. If we didn't get that knowledge in college, then we should take it upon ourselves to learn. Maybe thats a little cheesy and too hopeful, but we can't just sit around expecting things to be fed to us.

Note: I was a group 1/2 major at the academy, but I was also a giant nerd and was on the debate team where I learned about international relations.

 

[The Chief]

If the USNA is to change course, why not a major change?

Whereas the Navy trains only about 30% percent of officers at the Academy, and further, it is generally agreed that is no difference in quality/promotion/retention between accession sources, and in consideration of the very very large cost to the taxpayer for a 4 year stint at Boat School, why not make a change where it really makes sense? Rely 100% on OCS/NROTC/et al, for input into the officer corps?

Keep USNA as the Navy's school, officer and senior enlisted? Focus on those subjects that are really needed by the fighting force.

Interested? Read more on this subject in the current issue Proceeedings of the U S Naval Institute.:icon_smil

 

[Thisguy]

Miller said the difficulty with changing the curriculum at the Naval Academy is that many graduates need sufficient training to operate nuclear reactors in submarines or work with other cutting-edge technology in the surface fleet.

I think this statement it total BS...isn't that what 6 months of Nuclear Power School, 6 months of Prototype, then 3 months of sub school is for?

If the military wants a change, why not send newly commissioned officers to foregin relation type training before heading to their pipeline? I know, I know, that would create a huge jam, but why not make it a requirement before hitting O-3?

Undergraduate education is just that: undergraduate. There are lot of civilians who aren't really using their degrees. Most jobs require a BA/BS as some sort of foundation, then you learn what you need to in order to do the job. I'd say the military is pretty similar in that regard.

 

[Brett327]

Most jobs require a BA/BS as some sort of foundation, then you learn what you need to in order to do the job. I'd say the military is pretty similar in that regard.

Concur. To say that we're creating a cadre of various "experts" is naive. A BS no more makes you an expert in that field then getting a shiny new set of wings after the TRACOM. It's an entry-level training milestone. Additionally, I have never once heard anyone say, "Quick! Somebody get me an engineer!" in response to any squadron issue or emergency.

Brett

 

[MrSaturn]

Concur. To say that we're creating a cadre of various "experts" is naive. A BS no more makes you an expert in that field then getting a shiny new set of wings after the TRACOM.

Agreed, I wasn't implying they leading experts in the country. I just know it is nice having people with different backgrounds. I think a cadre with diverse background of majors is important and would be more desireable for the Navy then all one thing.

The Navy obviously pulls officers from a wide range of majors.

 

[Flash]

If the USNA is to change course, why not a major change?

Whereas the Navy trains only about 30% percent of officers at the Academy, and further, it is generally agreed that is no difference in quality/promotion/retention between accession sources, and in consideration of the very very large cost to the taxpayer for a 4 year stint at Boat School, why not make a change where it really makes sense? Rely 100% on OCS/NROTC/et al, for input into the officer corps?

Keep USNA as the Navy's school, officer and senior enlisted? Focus on those subjects that are really needed by the fighting force.

Interested? Read more on this subject in the current issue Proceeedings of the U S Naval Institute.:icon_smil

ROTC's can and have been kicked off campus, it is nice to have a sure thing.......

 

[xmid]

Even the English majors at the Academy are getting a pretty good dose of "technical" classes. The Calc/Chem/Physics requirement is much more than most schools would force you to take for an English/Poli-Sci degree. Thats probably why they let English majors service select Nuc.

It seems as if a lot of majors don't get enough credit as far as being technical. I'm a Finance major and where I go to school now it takes something like 9 extra credit hours to be a math minor.

 

[MrSaturn]

ROTC's can and have been kicked off campus, it is nice to have a sure thing.......

That's an interesting point. Whats the retention of ROTC and OCS? My class was roughly 1200 starting, 1000 graduated so 80% retention. So we arent a sure thing... but a good rate.

 

[hscs]

Funny how this issue repeats itself -- I believe that ADM Stockdale and other Vietnam era guys tried to push Annapolis into a more humanities based curriculum at the expense of engineering/science classes.