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Vladimir Putin accepts nomination for President of ruling United Russia party

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Contributor
Really? Post-Watergate, post-Viet Nam?

Watergate? The a**hole resigned from office in disgrace. Viet Nam? You obviously didn't serve there. Many of us who did didn't have a problem w/ being there. Just a huge problem w/ fighting not to win and getting hundreds of thousands of people killed - many americans whose lives were needlessly wasted - in the process. What we have now is the 'Chicago Way' of running - some say ruining - America. Obviously you & I are on opposite sides of the political spectrum here. That's OK.
 

Brett327

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Watergate? The a**hole resigned from office in disgrace. Viet Nam? You obviously didn't serve there. Many of us who did didn't have a problem w/ being there. Just a huge problem w/ fighting not to win and getting hundreds of thousands of people killed - many americans whose lives were needlessly wasted - in the process. What we have now is the 'Chicago Way' of running - some say ruining - America. Obviously you & I are on opposite sides of the political spectrum here. That's OK.
I think you're making his point. At any rate, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the lack of institutional integrity (I.E. in Congress) has anything to do with the current occupant of the Oval Office. If you take off your ideological blinders for five minutes, you'll see that both parties are equally responsible for the current state of affairs. Both are corrupt and more interested in serving their own needs than those of their constituents.

Brett
 

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Contributor
I think you're making his point. At any rate, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the lack of institutional integrity (I.E. in Congress) has anything to do with the current occupant of the Oval Office. If you take off your ideological blinders for five minutes, you'll see that both parties are equally responsible for the current state of affairs. Both are corrupt and more interested in serving their own needs than those of their constituents.

Brett
Brett: You're much too smart for this pedestrian forum. You belong on MSNBC or some platform where your brilliance can truly shine. The current occupant of the Oval Office is truly the Turtle on the Fencepost, as the saying goes. If he's your man, may God help us all. JMHO.
 

Brett327

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This is exactly what I mean. You automatically make assumptions about my political persuasions. To clue you in, I'm a Republican who voted for McCain and currently supports Speaker Gingrich. That said, I'm objective enough to see past the rhetoric of either party. So, can I at least get a slot on FNC to pontificate? I think I really have a shot with Megyn Kelly.

Back on point, do you disagree that Republicans in government are just a guilty of corruption, grift and self interest as the Democrats?

Brett
 

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Contributor
You can't have Megyn. She's my chick - and she digs older men, really older men, anyway! No wonder McCain lost. Yes, I agree Republicans are guilty, but to a markedly lesser degree. Pelosi, Frank, Reid, Durbin, Rangel, the former Ted Kennedy . . . these people are truly in a class of their own for self-dealing & hypocrisy. At least my generation's Republican hero, Duke Cunningham, is in the slammer - where he belongs.
 

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Contributor
My respect for the Russian people has increased immensely upon seeing that more than 100,000 of them gathered near the parliament building to protest Vladimir Putin and his thug political machine. Whether this movement will last until the March elections I cannot guess, but they are not the nation of cowed sheep (shameless mixed-metaphor) I had believed them to be. Let's hope this nascent movement really catches fire between now and then.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
The smart voter votes in the primaries. That's where your vote means something.
 

Brett327

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Both of you JSTFU and join us. I'll be again "throwing" my vote away this election and going for true change.

Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

Never more true words have ever been spoken.

Really? Libertarians? These have got to be the most unrealistic, naive people in the political spectrum. Even if you buy into their nonsense, getting one of their guys into the oval office would still have about zero chance of being able to inact any of their hare-brained ideas.

I'm curious about which of their policy objectives attract you to them.

Brett
 

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
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Really? Libertarians? These have got to be the most unrealistic, naive people in the political spectrum.
Founding fathers of this country had more libertarian beliefs than anyone today.

Even if you buy into their nonsense, getting one of their guys into the oval office would still have about zero chance of being able to inact any of their hare-brained ideas.
That's pretty true, and very sad. The roughest part of being a member of the 3rd largest political party in the US is that our highest recognized party member is on the city council of Indianapolis. :(

I'm curious about which of their policy objectives attract you to them.
Besides being pretty much ALL-IN on these policies: http://www.lp.org/platform, they aren't these guys:
brett said:
Both are corrupt and more interested in serving their own needs than those of their constituents.

I'm more of a objectivist than politically motivated libertarian, but the thoughts go hand-in-hand. My bibles: the bible for religion, Atlas Shrugged for societal politics. Besides having a full blown discussion on the merits of a fat-cat governmentalist like Newt, I'll concede that we'll never make it to an office of importance, but that America would be a helluva lot better if men like Thomas Jefferson (a Democratic-Republican) or those of similar thought could be reincarnated to unfck the world we live in right now.

Ayn Rand said:
I am interested in politics so that one day I will not have to be interested in politics.
 

Brett327

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The founding fathers thought a lot of things. Some people confuse "what the founding fathers thought or believed" with "what the founding fathers saw fit to codify in the constitution" - big difference. This is why I facepalm every time some yokel starts quoting the Jefferson or Federalist Papers like they're apendix A to the bill of rights. So, if Jefferson was in the libertarian camp, good for him. The document he signed and subsequently swore to uphold had built in mechanisms which allowed it to evolve and grow over time as the needs and interests of the people changed. That was the true genius of the Founding Fathers, not that all the generations that came after them would be held rigidly in obeyance of the Founder's personal philosophies in general.

As for your party, I've read their platform and watched it evolve over the years. Suffice it to say that it's definitely written to have mainstream likeability, but if you drill down into some of the Libertarians' core beliefs, that's where they start to part from reality. Driver's licence? FAA or FCC regulations? Public roads? Compulsory public education? Who needs any of that nonsense? This country would be a very different place without these basic things that Libertarians object to, and I think you'll have a hard time making a case that we'd all be better off in that kind of place.

Don't get me started on Ayn Rand. Her drivel may be understandable in the context of rebutting the Red Threat in the mid-20th century, but the concept of benevolent capitalism unchecked by government has proven demonstrably false time and time again in the last 200 years. Industrial revolution's exploitation of the labor class, Robber Barons, monopolies, rampant industrial pollution in the 60s and 70s. This is what you get with laissez faire capitalism. Hey, let's deregulate the mortgage industry! That worked out swimmingly. Not quite the libertarian utopia we're being sold on the party website.

The primacy of individual rights sounds great on paper until one comes to the shocking revelation that those individuals come together to interact in a society with common goals and needs. We have an active foreign policy and dole out foreign aid because we, collectively as Americans, have interests out there in the world. Isolationism, another central tenet of Libertarianism, has failed every time we've tried it. We can't be naive enough to think that we can live in a bubble while the rest of the world carries on as it chooses. The fact that we haven't fought a war on our homeland in ~150 years is precisely because we have an active foreign policy. All the same principles apply to economic matters, having a central bank and managing our fiscal and monetary policies.

I understand there's a lot of criticism for what Libertarians see as extra-constitutional programs, but just because the execution of our foreign policy and foreign aide programs aren't perfect, doesn't mean they're fundamentally flawed concepts which should be abandoned by the government.

Brett
 

gparks1989

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http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...tan-war-anti-israel-uncomfortable-around-gays

The article builds off of what Brett said. Fundamentally, the rise in popularity of Libertarianism is no different then the popularity of Hope and Change. The electorate as a whole doesn't want to ask the tough questions about policy and gobbles up soundbite upon soundbite. Nothing that Ron Paul or Gary Johnson espouse is possible (maybe ~1%) and to believe otherwise is naive.
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
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Contributor
Ron Paul's current surge is contributed more to the "he's not Romney" attitude and the fact that Gingrich (or anyone else) isn't turning out to be what people hoped than his actual policies. Hell, even Santorum is enjoying some elevated polling in Iowa. The last debate, he essentially shot himself in the foot with his comments toward Iran. His supporters are the more fervent of the crowd, and are quick to point out the difference between "isolationism" and "non-interventionism." In reality, there's no difference. Not only that, now that he's climbing the ranks, people are starting go deeper into his record and seeing what he's really like and stands for. Something about removing five departments and the "End the Fed" attitude that doesn't sit well with the general population.
 
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