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War in Israel

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MGoBrew11 said:
Becasue, Chuck, what good would it really do to go over there and use our might? We spent 20 flipping years in Afghanistan’s and Iraq and for what?

I’m a dad to two young kids. Why the heck should I and other fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters etc go over there and risk our lives to fight more terrorists that can’t be defeated in a conventional war?

This isn’t our battle. I’m sorry 27 Americans died. 27 or more die in the streets in America every day.
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Exactly. 27 Americans died.. how many more should we send to their deaths fighting someone else's battle? How much American treasure should we continue to ship around the world, adding to our dangerously massive debt and depleting our munitions stores, both of which greatly degrade our readiness to actually protect the American taxpayers in a conflict with China?
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I don't understand the values of those of you that oppose the use of our national power and might to defend and impose retribution for the murder of our fellow citizens. You are military MEN. This is what we do. I dont for the life of me understand the hesitency , restraint of actually using the capabilities we have invested in so heavily.

We protect our citizens - do we not?

I think our inaction, our restraint, our center of gravity toward deterrence and diplomacy can be over used.

This feels like Munich.
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By that logic, the Palestinians are justified in killing every Jew in Israel for the murder of Palestinians. I’m guessing you wouldn’t support that.

It’s always fascinating that those who have the least skin in the game are the quickest to advocate for scorched Earth military actions.
 
Mirage said:
both of which greatly degrade our readiness to actually protect the American taxpayers in a conflict with China?
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It is much easier when all of these malign actors (Both major and minor powers) aren’t acting in concert with one another. We haven’t engaged in great power competition in about 40 years, and while I’m not advocating getting into every little dust up or conflict that occurs in various parts of the world - We definitely need to be engaged or our competitors will occupy the vacuum.
 
Mos said:
Well, there's having an opinion (and I'm not saying it was a wrong opinion), and then there's imparting your wisdom on what is or is not becoming when you have yet to enter the profession.
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You're right, I haven't been there or done that nor am I trying to be preaching. What you are saying, however, I think borders on an argument from authority. Regardless, point taken. I'll stay in my lane.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I don't understand the values of those of you that oppose the use of our national power and might to defend and impose retribution for the murder of our fellow citizens. You are military MEN. This is what we do. I dont for the life of me understand the hesitency , restraint of actually using the capabilities we have invested in so heavily.

We protect our citizens - do we not?

I think our inaction, our restraint, our center of gravity toward deterrence and diplomacy can be over used.

This feels like Munich.
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Angry about dead Americans =/= Entering a war. Munich? Not even remotely the same situation, Chuck.

What policy or document are you referencing to justify us jumping wholesale into yet another war in the Middle East that's already being fought by the nation state that was attacked?

Further, the US is not showing hesitancy. POTUS has expressed unequivocal support for Israel as they pound the shit out of Hamas, and is providing military aid, including weapons, specops support, and a CSG in the region. So we do have both significant material and skin in the game. I may disagree with the current administration on many political and military issues, but I think they're doing the right thing here in supporting our ally who was barbarically attacked.

What further strategic and/or diplomatic advantage could come from us going in with boots in Gaza?
 
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Israel Doesn't Want US Troops on the Ground as It Wages War, White House Says | Military.com

www.military.com www.military.com

I wouldn’t think Israel wants anyone with more restrictive ROE in Gaza with them… it’ll be like Fallujah except with the full civilian population present.

It’s not our fight, but also I doubt we want to be too closely involved with the level of savagery and collateral damage about to go down. We can support the Israelis as they justify it a lot more easily than we can justify it ourselves.

www.politico.eu

The Saudi-Israel deal is in tatters

Biden had hoped to crown his presidential term with a historic peace agreement between Israel and the most powerful Arab state — that now seems unlikely.
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu

Israel and Saudi were about to enter into agreements… Iran, via Hamas, managed to throw a wrench into that for now. I imagine the US, while fully supporting Israel, still wants a modicum of impartiality as our state dept tries to strengthen those ties and thereby weaken Iran.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I don't understand the values of those of you that oppose the use of our national power and might to defend and impose retribution for the murder of our fellow citizens. You are military MEN. This is what we do. I dont for the life of me understand the hesitency , restraint of actually using the capabilities we have invested in so heavily.

We protect our citizens - do we not?

I think our inaction, our restraint, our center of gravity toward deterrence and diplomacy can be over used.

This feels like Munich.
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Look at the terrain via Google Earth - it sucks. Dense urban area surrounded by palm groves, narrow roads, with tunnels likely everywhere. This makes Fallujah, Ramadi, Karmah, and Sadr look like Beverly Hills. It's a 140 sq mi of meat grinding. The IDF has its work cut out for them. I certainly do not envy anyone in the IDF right now.

This is beyond a wicked problem that is the IDF's problem. Hamas did not directly attack us - how would you compare this to Munich when we have an ally laying waste to the area and looking to do a WWII style assault at high cost to their own forces.

OBTW - the American citizen - is also a dual citizen of Israel. Most news outlets or interviewees fail to mention this. IMHO - this is a choice and doesn't give you a direct line to call a tier 1 asset to come rescue you because you live in a dangerous part of the world.

BL - Don't see anyone waving a piece of paper claiming peace in our time on this one.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I don't understand the values of those of you that oppose the use of our national power and might to defend and impose retribution for the murder of our fellow citizens. You are military MEN. This is what we do. I dont for the life of me understand the hesitency , restraint of actually using the capabilities we have invested in so heavily.

We protect our citizens - do we not?

I think our inaction, our restraint, our center of gravity toward deterrence and diplomacy can be over used.

This feels like Munich.
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Keeping the war contained to a conflict between Israel and Hamas is strategically more important to the long-term national security of the US and its citizens than your feelings. Especially when Israel will win without us.

Also, don't look now but Israel is employing tactics that are not exactly in accordance with international law. If the U.S. had committed forces, there's no ability for America to denounce them and maintain its position that it stands for the rule of law.
 
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