War in Israel

[Mirage]

You're fucking delusional. Israel isn't letting the civilians evacuate???? They gave the civilians advanced warning to vacate northern Gaza and even created a safe path for them. If civilians aren't being allowed to leave, it's because of Hamas, not Israel. If they leave, Hamas loses their human shields and propaganda material.

Palestinians cannot evacuate Gaza because neither Israel nor Egypt will let them out. Sure, they can move from one side of the tiny area to the other, if they are physically capable and believe they actually have a place to go sleep at night.

Not to mention, roughly 800,000 Palestinians have left Northern Gaza since Israel gave the evacuation order and only about 300,000 remain. So if Israel isn't letting them leave, Israel is doing a pretty crappy job. So the remaining 300,000 probably either aren't being allowed to leave by Hamas or are staying willfully out of their support for Hamas.

By your same logic, if Hamas isn't letting them leave, then they are doing a pretty crappy job. We are talking about different things, though.

Hamas intermixed with civilians in a hospital? Intermixed? Their fucking headquarters are in tunnels underneath the hospital, strategically for that reason. There are 300 miles of tunnels that these terrorist use in this small 25 mile strip called Gaza. The bombing isn't just about targeting terrorist operatives, it's about destroying the infrastructure they use.

Yes, intermixed. Their tunnels are underneath everything there.. that doesn't mean they could just carpet bomb all of Gaza and say, "welp, we had to get rid of their tunnels", would it? Sure, that would accomplish the military objective of destroying the tunnels, but it would also amount to genocide.

This is a tough problem for Israel. Hamas has not cordoned off a section of tiny Gaza and labeled it their base. They are intermixed everywhere. Israel has a duty to try to limit civilian casualties. Currently, they do not seem to be trying to do that.

Palestinians in Gaza choose to live among terrorists. Common sense tells me that you support terrorists if you choose to live under their rule. Casualty is a part of war. Hamas started this war and now that they're in it, Hamas is maximizing the casualties.

This is how I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Palestinians cannot leave Gaza. They don't choose to live anywhere. They haven't for a very long time. And one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. This is a very nuanced situation, and you seem to be missing all of that.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Palestinians cannot evacuate Gaza because neither Israel nor Egypt will let them out. Sure, they can move from one side of the tiny area to the other, if they are physically capable and believe they actually have a place to go sleep at night.

By your same logic, if Hamas isn't letting them leave, then they are doing a pretty crappy job. We are talking about different things, though.

Yes, intermixed. Their tunnels are underneath everything there.. that doesn't mean they could just carpet bomb all of Gaza and say, "welp, we had to get rid of their tunnels", would it? Sure, that would accomplish the military objective of destroying the tunnels, but it would also amount to genocide.

This is a tough problem for Israel. Hamas has not cordoned off a section of tiny Gaza and labeled it their base. They are intermixed everywhere. Israel has a duty to try to limit civilian casualties. Currently, they do not seem to be trying to do that.

This is how I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Palestinians cannot leave Gaza. They don't choose to live anywhere. They haven't for a very long time. And one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. This is a very nuanced situation, and you seem to be missing all of that.

That's my point. If the Palestinians believe Hamas terrorists are their "freedom fighters", then they are terrorists too. If you support terrorists, you are a terrorist. It is now clear how many terrorists we have let in our country and now live among us. Stand by for this shit in the US.

You also failed to answer my question. How many of those Palestinian civilians do you think condemned the slaughter of 1,400 innocent Israeli citizens by Hamas? What's your best estimate percentage wise? I'm curious what you think. If they support it, that makes them enemies and a threat to Israel's existence. I also want to point out that in that small 25 mile strip of land, there are an estimated 40,000 Hamas fighters. That is a significant number. Destroying those tunnels is the only way to flush them out and ensure that infrastructure isn't used again for that purpose.

 

[Mirage]

That's my point. If the Palestinians believe Hamas terrorists are their "freedom fighters", then they are terrorists too. If you support terrorists, you are a terrorist. It is now clear how many terrorists we have let in our country and now live among us. Stand by for this shit in the US.

You also failed to answer my question. How many of those Palestinian civilians do you think condemned the slaughter of 1,400 innocent Israeli citizens by Hamas? What's your best estimate percentage wise? I'm curious what you think. If they support it, that makes them enemies and a threat to Israel's existence. I also want to point out that in that small 25 mile strip of land, there are an estimated 40,000 Hamas fighters. That is a significant number. Destroying those tunnels is the only way to flush them out and ensure that infrastructure isn't used again for that purpose.

Neither of us have any idea what percentage of Palestinians support Hamas' terrorist acts and the murder of Israeli children. Hamas won 44.5% of the votes in the 2006 election, and that's all I have to go off of. A large minority. What I do know, though, is that it's not all of them, and that supporting Hamas politically does not make someone a terrorist, any more than voting for Putin makes someone a murderer. It certainly doesn't mean Israel can just kill everyone in Gaza because they're all terrorists, like you seem to be implying. That is just bat shit crazy.

 

[IRfly]

That's my point. If the Palestinians believe Hamas terrorists are their "freedom fighters", then they are terrorists too. If you support terrorists, you are a terrorist. It is now clear how many terrorists we have let in our country and now live among us. Stand by for this shit in the US.

You also failed to answer my question. How many of those Palestinian civilians do you think condemned the slaughter of 1,400 innocent Israeli citizens by Hamas? What's your best estimate percentage wise? I'm curious what you think. If they support it, that makes them enemies and a threat to Israel's existence. I also want to point out that in that small 25 mile strip of land, there are an estimated 40,000 Hamas fighters. That is a significant number. Destroying those tunnels is the only way to flush them out and ensure that infrastructure isn't used again for that purpose.

Let's take down the temperature a little. You're a smart guy and you know that the bolded part a) doesn't really matter as to the question of whether someone is a combatant and b) also doesn't really matter when the bombs drop. I mean, does someone pass around a clipboard with a statement of condemnation for a 3-year-old to sign? Hamas is a terrorist organization, and that includes terrorizing the nearly 2 million people of Gaza, the vast majority of whom are just trying to live their lives and survive. You can take these lines of culpability a long way, and they work on all sides. Not sure we want to go down that rabbit hole.

It's worth noting, though, that Netanyahu's governments have openly and strategically supported Hamas over the last two decades in order to try to make a two-state solution an impossibility. They thought they had it all under control. They did not. They were warned by people who also care very much about the security of Israel. But I'm willing to throw out that it's very possible that Israel's security is not Netanyahu's top priority right now.

Finally, there are indeed SOME FEW who do indeed want to end the existence of the Israeli state. There are many more who have no such intention, but find the actions of the current Israeli government abhorrent and illegal.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Neither of us have any idea what percentage of Palestinians support Hamas' terrorist acts and the murder of Israeli children. Hamas won 44.5% of the votes in the 2006 election, and that's all I have to go off of. A large minority. What I do know, though, is that it's not all of them, and that supporting Hamas politically does not make someone a terrorist, any more than voting for Putin makes someone a murderer. It certainly doesn't mean Israel can just kill everyone in Gaza because they're all terrorists, like you seem to be implying. That is just bat shit crazy.

If you support a terrorist organization, it makes you a terrorist. I have zero sympathy for bombs dropping on Palestinians that support Hamas. Period.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Let's take down the temperature a little. You're a smart guy and you know that the bolded part a) doesn't really matter as to the question of whether someone is a combatant and b) also doesn't really matter when the bombs drop. I mean, does someone pass around a clipboard with a statement of condemnation for a 3-year-old to sign? Hamas is a terrorist organization, and that includes terrorizing the nearly 2 million people of Gaza, the vast majority of whom are just trying to live their lives and survive. You can take these lines of culpability a long way, and they work on all sides. Not sure we want to go down that rabbit hole.

It's worth noting, though, that Netanyahu's governments have openly and strategically supported Hamas over the last two decades in order to try to make a two-state solution an impossibility. They thought they had it all under control. They did not. They were warned by people who also care very much about the security of Israel. But I'm willing to throw out that it's very possible that Israel's security is not Netanyahu's top priority right now.

Finally, there are indeed SOME FEW who do indeed want to end the existence of the Israeli state. There are many more who have no such intention, but find the actions of the current Israeli government abhorrent and illegal.

Israel is surrounded by actors that want to exterminate them and wipe Israel off the map. What 'few' are you referring to?

 

[Mirage]

If you support a terrorist organization, it makes you a terrorist. I have zero sympathy for bombs dropping on Palestinians that support Hamas. Period.

Is it your belief that every Palestinian non-combatant supports Hamas, and therefor killing them isn't an issue? I am struggling to see your point if that's not it.

Please tell me you aren't in favor of genocide in Gaza.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Is it your belief that every Palestinian non-combatant supports Hamas, and therefor killing them isn't an issue? I am struggling to see your point if that's not it.

Please tell me you aren't in favor of genocide in Gaza.

It's my belief that the majority of Palestinians side with Hamas and not Israel. I would love for all the innocent Palestinians to get out of harms way. But in war, that never happens. Should that deter Israel from its goal to wipe out Hamas. Fuck no. That's my stance.

 

[IRfly]

Israel is surrounded by actors that want to exterminate them and wipe Israel off the map. What 'few' are you referring to?

This is not true. There are groups (Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, etc) that do want to end the State of Israel. They are not even close to a majority.

Look at these protests all over our country. Whether these protesters are actual Palestinians or of some other Arab origin and just supporting Palestine and Hamas, the message is clear. They support the destruction of Israel. They support the actions of Hamas. They want death to Israel and they want death to America.

But you were talking about people who were marching in protests, far away from "surrounding" Israel, against civilian casualties caused by Israel in Gaza and describing them as wanting to wipe Israel off the map. This is FoxNews-speak and slanders broad swaths of people who intend no such thing. It's intentionally dishonest.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

This is not true. There are groups (Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, etc) that do want to end the State of Israel. They are not even close to a majority.

But you were talking about people who were marching in protests, far away from "surrounding" Israel, against civilian casualties caused by Israel in Gaza and describing them as wanting to wipe Israel off the map. This is FoxNews-speak and slanders broad swaths of people who intend no such thing. It's intentionally dishonest.

They are surrounded, get a map. Hamas in Gaza to the south and Hezbollah in Lebanon to the north. They've also been taking rocket fire from Syria to the East. Oh, and you're forgetting the biggest problem, the ones who are behind all of these groups and wants Israel annihilated, Iran. Ya know what, there's some water there to the west so if that's your reasoning for saying they're not surrounded by enemies, I'll give you the west.

 

[IRfly]

They are surrounded, get a map. Hamas in Gaza to the south and Hezbollah in Lebanon to the north. They've also been taking rocket fire from Syria to the East. Oh, and you're forgetting the biggest problem, the ones who are behind all of these groups and wants Israel annihilated, Iran. Ya know what, there's some water there to the west so if that's your reasoning for saying they're not surrounded by enemies, I'll give you the west.

Well, ya got me. Israel is completely surrounded and locked in by hostiles. I had no idea about Hamas or Hizbullah (or PFLP or Islamic Jihad or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or any of the others). And I really should try to educate myself on the role of Iran in all of this. Maybe Jesse Waters will have some piercing insights this evening that will help the world be a better place.

You, good sir, I salute. Your wise, reasoned, informed, geographically accurate, and intellectually consistent arguments have inspired me to start upon the path to knowledge. I hope that some day I can reach your level and we can engage in a more fruitful conversation.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Well, ya got me. Israel is completely surrounded and locked in by hostiles. I had no idea about Hamas or Hizbullah (or PFLP or Islamic Jihad or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or any of the others). And I really should try to educate myself on the role of Iran in all of this. Maybe Jesse Waters will have some piercing insights this evening that will help the world be a better place.

You, good sir, I salute. Your wise, reasoned, informed, geographically accurate, and intellectually consistent arguments have inspired me to start upon the path to knowledge. I hope that some day I can reach your level and we can engage in a more fruitful conversation.

If I'm wrong on anything I said up there geographically then please correct me. Otherwise, your left wing Fox News bashing isn't going to make you right in this. They let you back on this site? Last time I was here you were banned for being a moron. (Although still posting stupid shit under a different name)

 

[IRfly]

You seem like a stable, well-adjusted dude. I hope you’re in charge of a lot of stuff.

Not sure what you’re talking about with the ban blah-blah. I think I got a one-week ban about 12 years ago for telling A4s that he was wrong. But about 18 years on this site, one username.

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

Is it your belief that every Palestinian non-combatant supports Hamas, and therefor killing them isn't an issue? I am struggling to see your point if that's not it.

Please tell me you aren't in favor of genocide in Gaza.

Are you in favor of the genocide that Israel faces?

This is between Israel and the terrorists. Approve of how Israel is handling this.

But really, are you in favor of the genocide that Israel faces?

 

[Griz882]

Gentlemen, it is possible to believe that Israel has an absolute right to defend herself and have empathy for those Palestinians who are suffering the impact of war.