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War in Israel

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Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
No they’re definitely related. You disregard the logic of international law which is rooted in the basic human rights you dislike to see violated (indiscriminate human suffering). Like many populists of the current political climate, it reeks of cognitive dissonance.

I won’t even touch your previous incorrect statement about the concept of proportionality. The beatings will continue.
In the past I have argued that countries do not care too much about international law when determining what actions they will take. LOAC's principal of proportionality has nothing to do with that, but is concerned with how war is carried out, not if it is carried out. Those are different things. Regardless, I am not arguing that militaries always follow LOAC because it is international law. Quite the opposite.. I am arguing that Israel is not following it in an immoral way, and the US should not support that. There is no cognitive dissonance there, just your confusion.

Again, not the same as bombing the hospital, but I think you know that. Nowhere in the article you linked does it say or suggest that Israel has "repeatedly bombed the entrance to the Al-Shifa hospital killing dozens". The only thing you claim that the article supports is that Israel bombed an ambulance. The article also says Israel claimed Hamas was using the ambulance. Could be true. Could've been a mistake. Do you actually know the truth? My guess is a resounding no.
From the article: "...the occupation [Israel] targeted...the gate of Al-Shifa medical compound". From the title: "...that witnesses say killed and wounded dozens". This is but one of many attacks, as I pointed out, and one of many articles covering the topic. You're welcome to do some research yourself. Over 4000 kids didn't blow themselves up.. they died in attacks like these.
That shit is fucking tragic, period. I mourn the loss of every innocent man, women, or child killed in this fucked up conflict regardless if they Palestinian or Israeli (or any other nationality for that matter). That number, however, doesn't prove that Israel does not care about civilians or is indiscriminately bombing civilians per say. Given the population of Gaza, you could argue that number should be significantly higher considering the intensity of the air campaign.
Sure, maybe Israel's bombs accomplished enough militarily to justify the fact that over 40% of the casualties are children, and a significant percentage more non-combatants. Considering their bombs accomplished nothing that their ground forces couldn't have without as much collateral damage, and they're already invading anyway, I am highly doubtful.
Actually, it was 1400 soldiers, women, and children. Do I even need to explain that "31 soldiers" figure is very likely under reporting and doesn't include all causalities or is that stating the obvious? Regardless, comparing numbers achieve very little except suggesting Israel is a lot more effective at protecting their own people than Hamas is. This is coming off a lot more emotional than objective.
First off, it was not 1400. 1400 were killed on day 0. As I said, while (ie, during the time which) Israel was killing 4000+ children and 10000+ Gazans, they've lost 31. Second, yes, please explain why Israel would under-report their KIA figures?

Comparing these numbers does far more than show Israel is better at protecting their own. It's easy to inflict a lot of casualties while receiving none if you are bombing densely populated residential districts, killing thousands of children, and losing 0 pilots in the process because the people are defenseless. But sure.. bravo, IDF.
Lots of dead Gaza civilians for sure. Hamas has said it wants martyrs. It is getting them.

Hamas has said in interviews that it needs martyrs to accomplish its goal, that it is not their job to protect the Palestinians (it is the UN’s) and that what they did in October 7th they will keep doing over and over and over. Hamas has zero desire to minimize Palestinians casualties, and in fact wants them. They could use their tunnels to protect them, but they don’t. The fundamental job of a government is to protect their people. Hamas is doing the opposite.

There are no clean hands on either side here, but the sooner Hamas is gone, the fewer Palestinians will be killed.
Indeed. To be clear, I am not pro-Hamas at all. They are terrorists and awful people. I hope every one of them gets what's coming to them. But I am absolutely against the needless bombing of non-combatants enroute to accomplishing that objective.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Curious to know the reactions of the Egyptian and Saudi governments to the current situation - any insights?
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
In the past I have argued that countries do not care too much about international law when determining what actions they will take. LOAC's principal of proportionality has nothing to do with that, but is concerned with how war is carried out, not if it is carried out. Those are different things. Regardless, I am not arguing that militaries always follow LOAC because it is international law. Quite the opposite.. I am arguing that Israel is not following it in an immoral way, and the US should not support that. There is no cognitive dissonance there, just your confusion.

Okay Mirage. Apparently in your skewed perception of reality, the casus belli for the initiation of hositlities is irrelevant in modern warfare. Even though every single nation or state that has conducted war has justified their actions at UNSC (modern) or court of public opinion (Since the days of Babylon) since time immemorial. If the laws (binding or customary) are irrelevant then no country would need to justify its actions, but that has never been the case. Israel was given its mandate for war on Oct. 7th. The irony of you picking and choosing international law for your own believe system is rich. Both the LOAC and the just cause initiation of conflict are both codified in several ratified international agreements. Exhibit A why you (and most populists) routinely get pounded in the court of public opinion.

As for the LOAC, Not a single person, reporter, or news agency can accurately verify total deaths (specifically by Israel). Only complete morons would trust the numbers currently coming out of Gaza. Lastly, in case you don’t remember, we were putting 105 shells through ambulances and 500lbs HE into civilian buildings (Including Mosques and schools) in Fallujah, Marjah, Syria, and throughout the Sangin river valley. At times, with civilian casualties. 99% of them with complete legal justification.

We need to put the realistic lens on what Israel ground commanders are facing, and I don’t blame them for one bit dropping high yield ordnance on buildings with Hamas fighters and significant stock piles of munitions and weaponry. Let alone those buildings are probably littered with IEDs and ambushes for Israeli ground forces. Particularly with regard to the military advantages gained.
 

Average Monke

A primate with internet access
My use of the term "proportionality" was more about total number of casualties thus far in the conflict. If I used the term incorrectly or caused confusion then that's on me, sorry.
No need to apologize, that is what I thought you meant.
That being said, even if Israel isn't technically violating LOAC, points have been made since my last post demonstrating that Israel is acting in a way that has or could cause them to eventually lose the moral high ground. Just look at the rhetoric from other nations who initially supported Israel after Oct 7.
I agree.
 

Average Monke

A primate with internet access
yes, please explain why Israel would under-report their KIA figures?
Is it not common to publicly under report causality figures? Some very basic reasons would be to maintain morale/public support and to not give your enemy an accurate idea on their effectiveness.

As for the rest of your response, it feels like I'm beating a dead horse. Let's agree to disagree.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Curious to know the reactions of the Egyptian and Saudi governments to the current situation - any insights?
Great question! My take is that as a national government they don’t really care as long as the conflict stays within the existing boundaries. Internally, among their people, they are weeping with selective outrage, but they will not act against US interests.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Okay Mirage. Apparently in your skewed perception of reality, the casus belli for the initiation of hositlities is irrelevant in modern warfare. Even though every single nation or state that has conducted war has justified their actions at UNSC (modern) or court of public opinion (Since the days of Babylon) since time immemorial. If the laws (binding or customary) are irrelevant then no country would need to justify its actions, but that has never been the case. Israel was given its mandate for war on Oct. 7th. The irony of you picking and choosing international law for your own believe system is rich. Both the LOAC and the just cause initiation of conflict are both codified in several ratified international agreements. Exhibit A why you (and most populists) routinely get pounded in the court of public opinion.

As for the LOAC, Not a single person, reporter, or news agency can accurately verify total deaths (specifically by Israel). Only complete morons would trust the numbers currently coming out of Gaza. Lastly, in case you don’t remember, we were putting 105 shells through ambulances and 500lbs HE into civilian buildings (Including Mosques and schools) in Fallujah, Marjah, Syria, and throughout the Sangin river valley. At times, with civilian casualties. 99% of them with complete legal justification.

We need to put the realistic lens on what Israel ground commanders are facing, and I don’t blame them for one bit dropping high yield ordnance on buildings with Hamas fighters and significant stock piles of munitions and weaponry. Let alone those buildings are probably littered with IEDs and ambushes for Israeli ground forces. Particularly with regard to the military advantages gained.
Are you okay?

Is it not common to publicly under report causality figures? Some very basic reasons would be to maintain morale/public support and to not give your enemy an accurate idea on their effectiveness.

As for the rest of your response, it feels like I'm beating a dead horse. Let's agree to disagree.
No, it is not common for Western democracies to lie to families about who has died and who has not. You don't know what you're talking about.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
I think it's pretty obvious that's not what I said...

Poor form dude.
You might not have realized it, but it is what you said. The Israeli govt would have to lie to families and their voting public in order to under-report their casualties, as you claimed. They publish a list of their KIA. You're starting to sound like ol' Random. No experience in the military but coming on here talking down to those who do about military-related matters.

Poor form, dude.
 

Average Monke

A primate with internet access
You might not have realized it, but it is what you said. The Israeli govt would have to lie to families and their voting public in order to under-report their casualties, as you claimed.
Incorrect. That is your interpretation, which evidently can completely miss the mark. Here is what I implied - Israel's government can inform the families PRIVATELY about their loss and not disclose total numbers PUBLICLY. I am actually shocked this never occurred to you. A government lying to their voting population? Are you seriously acting like that's something absurd?
You're starting to sound like ol' Random. No experience in the military but coming on here talking down to those who do about military-related matters.
lmfao, what? So you are right because you have 'military experience'? Making an argument from authority and in the same breath claiming I am 'talking down' is hilariously ironic.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
That’s all you got?
Yessir. I've explained my thoughts to you in clear language and good detail multiple times. Your reply makes it clear you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not gonna keep repeating it. As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't teach a hotdog political science.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Incorrect. That is your interpretation, which evidently can completely miss the mark. Here is what I implied - Israel's government can inform the families PRIVATELY about their loss and not disclose total numbers PUBLICLY. I am actually shocked this never occurred to you. A government lying to their voting population? Are you seriously acting like that's something absurd?

lmfao, what? So you are right because you have 'military experience'? Making an argument from authority and in the same breath claiming I am 'talking down' is hilariously ironic.
Jesus. You do not know what you are talking about. In an operation like this, a Western style democracy simply does not do what you are imagining. You have never been trained as a CACO, have you? You ever dealt with anything related to what is involved in notifying next of kin of a death? Can you imagine the political fallout if we found out that the X administration had lied to the public about Afghanistan casualties in order to maintain public support for the war?

Just stop.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
You're starting to sound like ol' Random. No experience in the military but coming on here talking down to those who do about military-related matters.

Poor form, dude.
Since when have I talked down to anyone on military matters? I have debated some on military history issues and on geopolitical issues, but beyond that, I don't know what you're referring to.
 
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