Which Marine Officers are more well rounded?

[Ave8tor]

.....but seeing how the reserves these days come with an almost guaranteed 1-3 deployments in a 6 year enlistment, I wouldn't be so quick to knock on them...prbly takes them 6+ years to get through college.

Very true nowadays. I was in just over 6.5 and was called up twice for activation. Got to see all the guys I went to mech school with get promoted and then get out (my reserve field was frozen for promotions for quite some time) all while I was in limbo. Went to OCS Juniors in 01 as a young stud, two activations and several college courses later, OCS round two in 05 (not feeling so young anymore), back for some more classes for the degree/commission in 06. Thought a BA in Art would have taken me a lot shorter than 6 years, but hey, when the call comes you gotta answer. Met a lot of people, good and bad, tried different brands of leadership and found the one that I think fits well with my personality. Big things are don't abuse the position now that your collars shine or look down your nose at the enlisted, it gets noticed. Many of those kids will put themselves through hell to get the job done, if the respect goes both ways!

 

[HAL Pilot]

A Mustang is a Mustang no matter how little experience they actually have......let his/her enlisted decide if they're worthy of the respect/title or not....

I was 4 years enlisted in the Army Reserve, I would never consider myself to be a Mustang. Besides being a different service, it was all reserve time with active duty for training & summer only.

In the Navy when we talk about Mustangs, we are talking guys with serious enlisted time who have earned a direct commission via LDO, CWO, etc. Guys that get out and go to OCS/ROTC later, or go STA-21, are normally just considered prior enlisted. I never heard any of these guys refer to themselves as Mustangs nor have I heard anyone else refer to them as Mustangs. In fact, they did not receive the same immediate presumption of knowledge/respect from either the enlisted or officers that the LDOs/CWOs (the Mustangs) did.

But I do remember once upon a time reading that historically the minimum for others to consider a prior enlisted a Mustang is at least enough active duty enlisted time to have earned a Good Conduct Medal. But I believe that to be a technicality versus reality.

I don't know how it is in the Marines so I will end by saying we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[m26]

I was 4 years enlisted in the Army Reserve, I would never consider myself to be a Mustang. Besides being a different service, it was all reserve time with active duty for training & summer only.

Is Mustang an Army thing, too?

An Army veteran I know describe himself as prior enlisted today (he didn't say "Mustang"). I know that he went to OCS out of college, so I asked him to elaborate. He explained that he had gone to boot camp and AIT (or the equivalent at that time), and thus was "prior enlisted," and a reliable source on enlisted life (for the purposes of our very limited discussion).

 

[HAL Pilot]

I don't hear Mustang used much for the Army but have on a few occasions. I was an Army brat growing up and there were a lot of E-7 - E-9 around who held commissions in the Army Reserve. These guys were occasionally referred to as Mustangs standing by to be activated in time of war.

 

[m26]

How is that possible? You mean that they were active duty NCOs, simultaneously in the reserves and holding a different rank there?

 

[Lawman]

Is Mustang an Army thing, too?

An Army veteran I know describe himself as prior enlisted today (he didn't say "Mustang"). I know that he went to OCS out of college, so I asked him to elaborate. He explained that he had gone to boot camp and AIT (or the equivalent at that time), and thus was "prior enlisted," and a reliable source on enlisted life (for the purposes of our very limited discussion).

Ive never heard anyone call themselves a "mustang" and there are plenty of guys who made E-7 or better and went Warrant/Commission who could do it. Its always Prior, and with that there are differing groups. The Army has what some call a "right shoulder patch" mafia of guys who have and havent deployed in their enlisted life. Some guys carry a real chip on their shoulder about the idea that if you dont have a combat patch your not a real soldier yet. Along with that you have a lesser but still annoying game of tabs and skill badges (especially depending upon unit). For instance if your in the 82nd, but you havent been to Jump School yet your apparently a second class citizen amongst the E's. If you and another guy are straight out of West Point but you have a tab or badge the other guy doesnt have its the differnce on your OER. So you'll see a lot of guys go to Ranger School or Jump School when it has absolutely nothing to do with their jobs (3 guys with Ranger tabs in my class that did it while at West Point).

WOCS is a trip for seeing the diversity of people you'll find in the Warrant Corps. We had everything from 18 year old straight out of highschool guys who were going Aviation to guys who had gotten to the point where they would either have to pin Sgt Major or head to WOCS. Its not just guys that did a few years Enlisted with a clear goal of being officers it really reaches across all the lines. You've also got verying degrees of education. Some of us have bachelors, occasionally a masters, some guys have no higher education at all.

 

[scoolbubba]

You mean aircraft don't fall out of the sky if you don't have a bachelors degree?!?! I thought they ran on Bernoulli's and BAs and BSs!

 

[HAL Pilot]

How is that possible? You mean that they were active duty NCOs, simultaneously in the reserves and holding a different rank there?

The Army used to do this all the time, not sure if it is still current practice. It was how the Army was going to quickly expand its officer ranks for the next big war.

In 1987-89 my Dad (a COL) had a Master Sargent that worked for him who held a reserve commission as a LTC. The guy would drill one night a week doing Command and General Staff College. That night, he would put on his LTC uniform and go to class. The rest of the time, he wore his enlisted rank.

About the time he was due to transfer, the Army was looking for reserve officers to take 3 year active duty orders as COs of ROTC units. He applied to activate his commission, got the nod and off he went. Active duty Master Sargent one day, active duty Lieutenant Colonel the next.

After the Viet Nam war, the Army also RIFfed a bunch of officers all the way up to Majors. Many with just 4 or 5 years to go to retirement. These guys were given the option of staying on active duty as E-7 - E-9, depending on their officer rank. If they accepted, they maintained their reserve commissions in inactive status.

The other part of this is that when you retire, you retire at the highest rank held. So there were a lot of guys that served active as enlisted but retired as an officer.

 

[scoolbubba]

After the Viet Nam war, the Army also RIFfed a bunch of officers all the way up to Majors. Many with just 4 or 5 years to go to retirement. These guys were given the option of staying on active duty as E-7 - E-9, depending on their officer rank. If they accepted, they maintained their reserve commissions in inactive status.

That seems like it would create more headaches and problems on both sides of the line that it would help. How many guys took them up on that offer?

 

[HAL Pilot]

That seems like it would create more headaches and problems on both sides of the line that it would help. How many guys took them up on that offer?

There were quite a few. Many were guys that started enlisted, got direct commissioned due to Viet Nam and then didn't have the education. ticket punches, etc. to be competitive in the non-wartime post Viet Nam Army. They liked the Army, wanted to stay in the Army and had already been senior enlisted. So they reverted back.

In a way, not really so different from when Navy LDOs had the option to revert back to enlisted up until they accepted LCDR. We had 2 during my CVN tour who reverted. ENS -> CPO, LTJG -> SCPO, LT -> MCPO. One AO1 got commissioned as a LDO with 7 years total time in service, made LT on schedule at the 4 year mark commissioned and then reverted back to AOCM the next week. He decided as a newly promoted LTJG he didn't like being an officer but held out until LT because he would go back to MCPO. So he was a MCPO with 11 years total service. (Yes he got a lot of crap from the Chief's Mess when he showed up but hey, he was the senior E in his command and what could they do?)

LDOs used to hold concurrent enlisted and officer rank (I say used to because I don't know if it has changed in the 11 years since I retired). When they accepted ENS, they were automatically promoted to CPO (or maintained their current rank if E-7, E-8s skipped ENS & E-9s skipped both ENS & LTJG). When they were promoted to LTJG, they are automatically promoted to SCPO. Accepting LT was an automatic promotion to MCPO but the Navy change when LDOs could revert back to enlisted status around the time I retired. If I remember right, they had to decide when they accept LT if they are going to stay officer or revert. This was done in part because of incidents like I just described were becoming too common. The Chiefs felt that it was a little too extreme that one could automatically become a MCPO without ever having served as a CPO or SCPO. Big Navy felt it was being used and wasting their investment in the LDO.