Who gets the T-6 Texan II first?

[ChuckMK23]

But Chuck, I'm thinking that whole "boat" thing is a key ingredient to Naval Aviation training. I know, I know, a better system could be put on there, but we all know how long that takes.

Well true - I guess we need both. Hell, we used to train on the MK-6 plotting board atthe RAG too! Uggh.

TACAN is indeed a navaid most suited to a moving platform like say, a boat. But as one who many times flew TACAN azimuth down to 200 and 1/2 (see the wake yet?) I always thought there had to be another way!

Then again there is always smoke/flares off the stern!

 

[Gatordev]

Yeah, I hear you. I don't know how many approaches I've done saying "Well, you're needles out, but you're actually on line up. Just twist the CDI to the right a bit," to my copilot. I even know of a cruiser that spent just about all 8 months underway w/ out a working TACAN.

 

[Fly Navy]

Probably shouldn't be anymore - with the exception of at the boat. But TACAN is a dead/dieing technology.

Oh I agree. We love the ILS in the T-45C. Oh, but guess what, none of the fleet jets have an ILS (though I think Brett said some of the Prowlers do). As far as I know, not even the Super Hornet has an ILS. That's ridiculous. It's the basic recovery method at most major civilian and I think AF fields now. It works, it's easy, and it's self-contained. *sigh*

Don't get me started on the Navy and GPS navigation.

 

[ChuckMK23]

It all comes down to NAVAIR thinking they have to re-invent the wheel for every little detail and "certify" to particular Navy requirements.

A Navy jet and an AF jet can't have the same technical requirements for recovering at a traditional airfield could they? I mean that would imply the services could use the same technologies and <gasp> buy the same equipment ... and somebody, somewhere might have a few dollars less in some budget pool!

It all comes down to preserving what's yours even at the expense of the war fighter!

 

[phrogdriver]

I would think that for a "joint" training platform, like the T-6, BOTH services' training requirements should be met. TACAN, for all its foibles, is what will be in the fleet for the forseeable future, so SNAs should train to it. I don't know why we train so much on the GPS in the TH-57C--no fleet aircraft has an IFR-capable unit. Exposure for the future 10 years down the line, I guess.

BTW, I was surprised to hear the superbug doesn't have ILS. You will be gratified to hear that the MV-22 does. Probably thanks to the USAF joint req't!

 

[ZoomByU]

TACAN: Azimuth and DME on UHF frequencies. Tune your channel (70X) and you get that information.

VOR: Azimuth ONLY on VHF frequencies. Tune your station (108.0) and you get that information.

VOR/DME: Azimuth and DME on VHF/UHF frequencies. In a civilian VOR/DME, you tune your station (112.7) and you get that information. It automatically tunes in the paired UHF frequency for the DME. If you tune a TACAN to the listed channel for the VOR/DME, you ONLY get DME information.

VORTAC: TACAN and VOR (possibly VOR/DME) co-located. Pick which one you want to tune.

 

[Brett327]

I don't know why we train so much on the GPS in the TH-57C--no fleet aircraft has an IFR-capable unit.

Just because you can't shoot an approach off the GPS doesn't mean it's not good for all the other various navigation tasks. Why use TACANs when you can go GPS direct. While I agree that the TACAN is and will remain a fixture of Naval Aviation, in the TACAIR, it is rare to shoot a TACAN approach when you have ACLS or a PAR available.

Brett

 

[phrogdriver]

Umm...Zoom By U, why did you just quote Fly Navy with no associated comment?

 

[phrogdriver]

Just because you can't shoot an approach off the GPS doesn't mean it's not good for all the other various navigation tasks. Why use TACANs when you can go GPS direct. While I agree that the TACAN is and will remain a fixture of Naval Aviation, in the TACAIR, it is rare to shoot a TACAN approach when you have ACLS or a PAR available.

Brett

Yes--it's useful for VFR nav esp. tactical nav, which is not what the TH-57C GPS training is doing. Using training time for T-approaches and the intricacies of RAIM isn't all that productive as far as generating a good fleet pilot. The TH-57C GPS is not very useful as a tactical aid--for starters, it would take you all day to program a route in there spinning the dials. It's for IFR use in GPS instrument approaches. The IFR use of a VFR GPS should be limited to enhancing SA or in an emergency. I use my GPS all the time in the fleet (or my semblance of the fleet), but not at all in the way the GPS is instructed in advanced helos. If TACAIR instruction works GPS into getting a TOT, then good on you guys. The R/W side teaches it only in the context of benign IFR flying.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Flying a single pilot medium-twin helo in EMS ops, GPS was absolutely critical - and I got real good at spinning the knobs on my IFR certified Garmin while talking on the radios and flying (night) all at the same time. Regardless of terrain, altitude, weather, etc I could offload navigation to the trusty GPS - especially for knowing what airspace you were about to enter...I don't think I ever even opened up a paper chart after a while...

Having those practical skills was never taught - you had to pick them up from experience and other pilots. I wish the Navy would teach more practical uses of GPS in the helo community and not make people think it's an IFR tool only.

 

[ZoomByU]

Umm...Zoom By U, why did you just quote Fly Navy with no associated comment?

the smiley is confused, b/c I have no idea what it means

 

[Pags]

TACAN: Azimuth and DME on UHF frequencies. Tune your channel (70X) and you get that information.

VOR: Azimuth ONLY on VHF frequencies. Tune your station (108.0) and you get that information.

VOR/DME: Azimuth and DME on VHF/UHF frequencies. In a civilian VOR/DME, you tune your station (112.7) and you get that information. It automatically tunes in the paired UHF frequency for the DME. If you tune a TACAN to the listed channel for the VOR/DME, you ONLY get DME information.

VORTAC: TACAN and VOR (possibly VOR/DME) co-located. Pick which one you want to tune.

I think the key to my confusion is that I was under the impression that the NSE TACAN is just a TACAN, apparently though, it's actually a VORTAC, but its just not represented as such on charts to deter civilians from dropping in.

 

[Fly Navy]

Not completely true. What you're probably thinking of is the inability to shoot 'civilian' ILS approaches. I'm not sure on the specifics of how the different systems work, (nor do I particularly care), but fleet jets can shoot an ILS approach, just not the ones we shot in T-45s @ civvie fields. I think jarhead may have addressed this in a thread some time ago in regards to the legacy hornet.

ILS is civilian ILS when stated as such. CILS is not the same system... is that what you're thinking of?

 

[Fly Navy]

I think the key to my confusion is that I was under the impression that the NSE TACAN is just a TACAN, apparently though, it's actually a VORTAC, but its just not represented as such on charts to deter civilians from dropping in.

Yep, it's a VORTAC, and like you said, they don't want civilians navigating off of it.

There are paired freqs for TACAN, you're right, but in normal circumstances they'll only give you DME, if anything.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

ILS is civilian ILS when stated as such. CILS is not the same system... is that what you're thinking of?

You mean ICLS...

The Rhino NATOPS (and everything in the jet) actually do call it "ILS"... regardless of whether or not it's the same system as the AF and civilian world uses it. It works the same way... just not compatible with their systems...