Woman + Subs

[PropAddict]

Besides, no form of BC other than abstinence is truly 100% effective.

 

[helolumpy]

You've got 10 years AD time...you tell me.

My bet is that sooner, rather than later, nature will take over and run its course and someone will either go on patrol and need medevac'd for an unknown prior pregnancy, or otherwise normal people will be placed in an extraordinary situation coupled with an unnatural amount of close contact and shit will happen, as it tends to.

I've had to do MedEvacs for a couple of pregnant sailors who got some kind of complication during pregnancy. I remember one was a bladder infection (that was 7.5 hours in the saddle and three fuelings to complete) and I can't remember what the other one was for, but it was not what you would consider a life threatening (to a non-pregnant person) issue.

Since ships have zero prenatal type care, if there is so much as a sniffle from the mom-to-be, a Captain will most likely get the sailor off the ship.

 

[Silhouette]

Does it matter? You can't operate based on what should be happening, or what everyone should be doing.

You've got 10 years AD time...you tell me.

My bet is that sooner, rather than later, nature will take over and run its course and someone will either go on patrol and need medevac'd for an unknown prior pregnancy, or otherwise normal people will be placed in an extraordinary situation coupled with an unnatural amount of close contact and shit will happen, as it tends to.

I guess I've been tap dancing around this point/question: When women and men are together in any vessel and they understand the importance of the mission and the potential ramifications (for themselves, everyone else aboard, and the mission) of ignoring orders, are they capable of restraining themselves? If the honest answer is yes, then failure to exercise restraint should be a career-ender.
NOW, before everyone goes crazy on me talking about how we'd have no personnel left to drive da boats, think about the argument of "nature taking over," etc. We're not cave men and women anymore; we've developed impulse control. I know there will be arguments against that as well, but honestly, I'm surprised to see so much argument for the right (?) of people to have sex at inappropriate times and places.

And yes, Scoolbubba, in my time I have seen things that make me cringe, but what gets me more -- as I was trying to express above -- is the reluctance of leaders to pull the trigger in instances of blatant deployment dodging and orders violations in war zones.

EDIT: Croakerfish, I think you're right that we can't operate on what should be happening. My argument is if there was a real punishment for inability to control yourself, eventually the issue would become much, much less of an issue.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I guess I've been tap dancing around this point/question: When women and men are together in any vessel and they understand the importance of the mission and the potential ramifications (for themselves, everyone else aboard, and the mission) of ignoring orders, are they capable of restraining themselves? If the honest answer is yes, then failure to exercise restraint should be a career-ender.
NOW, before everyone goes crazy on me talking about how we'd have no personnel left to drive da boats, think about the argument of "nature taking over," etc. We're not cave men and women anymore; we've developed impulse control. I know there will be arguments against that as well, but honestly, I'm surprised to see so much argument for the right (?) of people to have sex at inappropriate times and places.

And yes, Scoolbubba, in my time I have seen things that make me cringe, but what gets me more -- as I was trying to express above -- is the reluctance of leaders to pull the trigger in instances of blatant deployment dodging and orders violations in war zones.

EDIT: Croakerfish, I think you're right that we can't operate on what should be happening. My argument is if there was a real punishment for inability to control yourself, eventually the issue would become much, much less of an issue.

Why do you hate women?

 

[Silhouette]

Why do you hate women?

LOL I'm an equal opportunity hater.
This is a discussion about women serving on subs. One of the biggest arguments against it, or at least showing why it would lessen mission readiness, is pregnancy. I agree with the fact that a pregnancy will disrupt the mission in some way. However, the argument in itself is implying that when women are introduced, pregnancies will happen (as though there is no other option). This glosses over two facts: that a man would have to be involved, and that the man and the woman have a choice.
Maybe the men on subs could buck tradition and say to the ladies "thanks, but no thanks," assuming they would even be coming on to the fellas. I dunno. I'm just trying to throw another angle into the discussion because normally the solutions just go straight to birth control or banning women rather than looking at the cause.

 

[scoolbubba]

Maybe the men on subs could buck tradition and say to the ladies "thanks, but no thanks," assuming they would even be coming on to the fellas. I dunno. I'm just trying to throw another angle into the discussion because normally the solutions just go straight to birth control or banning women rather than looking at the cause.

Yea, no. If someone as career oriented as a prior 4 star Director of the CIA couldn't stay away from the honey pot, how do you think a 21 year old MM3 on a boomer who hasn't seen the sun but has seen his female shipmate every day underway is going to do?

 

[RadicalDude]

I guess I've been tap dancing around this point/question: When women and men are together in any vessel and they understand the importance of the mission and the potential ramifications (for themselves, everyone else aboard, and the mission) of ignoring orders, are they capable of restraining themselves? If the honest answer is yes, then failure to exercise restraint should be a career-ender.
NOW, before everyone goes crazy on me talking about how we'd have no personnel left to drive da boats, think about the argument of "nature taking over," etc. We're not cave men and women anymore; we've developed impulse control. I know there will be arguments against that as well, but honestly, I'm surprised to see so much argument for the right (?) of people to have sex at inappropriate times and places.

And yes, Scoolbubba, in my time I have seen things that make me cringe, but what gets me more -- as I was trying to express above -- is the reluctance of leaders to pull the trigger in instances of blatant deployment dodging and orders violations in war zones.

EDIT: Croakerfish, I think you're right that we can't operate on what should be happening. My argument is if there was a real punishment for inability to control yourself, eventually the issue would become much, much less of an issue.

Wow man, the naïveté here is strong. Wait til you do a cruise... Or even go on det. It will open your eyes. The military is not some paragon of obedience to every regulation.

 

[bubblehead]

Yea, no. If someone as career oriented as a prior 4 star Director of the CIA couldn't stay away from the honey pot, how do you think a 21 year old MM3 on a boomer who hasn't seen the sun but has seen his female shipmate every day underway is going to do?

+1

It will only be a matter of time.

 

[Silhouette]

Yea, no. If someone as career oriented as a prior 4 star Director of the CIA couldn't stay away from the honey pot, how do you think a 21 year old MM3 on a boomer who hasn't seen the sun but has seen his female shipmate every day underway is going to do?

So no man can refuse? I'm sure others would disagree.

Wow man, the naïveté here is strong. Wait til you do a cruise... Or even go on det. It will open your eyes. The military is not some paragon of obedience to every regulation.

I was talking beyond obedience to regulations and trying to get more at ability to refuse for whatever reason. I'm well aware of what goes on and regulations that get flouted routinely.

 

[Silhouette]

+1

It will only be a matter of time.

Okay. Message received.

 

[BusyBee604]

Okay. Message received.

Awww, don't just give up, this discussion is very interesting to this old school 'Bubblehead'. DBF!
BzB

 

[scoolbubba]

So no man can refuse? I'm sure others would disagree.


I was talking beyond obedience to regulations and trying to get more at ability to refuse for whatever reason. I'm well aware of what goes on and regulations that get flouted routinely.

I'm not saying no one can refuse; in fact, quite the opposite. 99% of the time, everyone will do what they are supposed to. It's the 1% of the time that causes headaches, firings, masts, scandals, etc, and it only takes one fuck up to bring a boomer to the surface on a deterrent patrol. Kind of an issue for a boat that only a few people are supposed to know the location of.

 

[HAL Pilot]

100% effective

 

[e6bflyer]

Someone WILL get pregnant on a boomer or fast attack and have to be medivac'd. It IS going to happen. I don't think it will happen with the regularity that it happens on surface ships, but to think that we can tell a bunch of 18-25 year old kids "hey, I know you are a bunch of kids living in a steel tube under the water for 3 months, but pretty please ignore all your urges and desires and keep it in your pants" and they are going to listen 100% of the time....forget it. I am sure this is being discussed at a higher level than Air Warriors (at least I hope) and they are forming a policy. I made a handful of boomer patrols in a prior life, and I don't think we ever went an entire patrol without doing a medivac or humevac, and none of them were done via helo. It happens a lot more commonly than the posts above lead me to believe you guys think.

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

So no man can refuse? I'm sure others would disagree.


I was talking beyond obedience to regulations and trying to get more at ability to refuse for whatever reason. I'm well aware of what goes on and regulations that get flouted routinely.

They don't refuse on other ships why would this be any different? I'm not saying it will happen all the time, but it will happen.