Woman + Subs

[Ducky]

If our medical departments can force a flu shot on sailors in the name of readiness, we should be able to "vaccinate" our female sailors against pregnancy for the exact same reason.

Because of religious and moral implications, and yes the military generally respects peoples religious beliefs and tries not to interfere with them. Its just not good business.

On the otherhand pregnancy underway should have severe career consequences. We have all seen countless officers relieved underway for sexual misconduct, and I see no reason why a pregnancy underway would not be in the same category of fuck ups when it came to the consequences.

You can slice this anyway you want it, but just remember, when sailor bob gets flown off and fucks the unit because he failed his drug test you still run into the same issue of mission readiness and capabilities. Every woman in not an unprofessional skank just waiting to get knocked up.

 

[scoober78]

Boomers go underway for set timetables and basically never interact with the outside world.

Except for email, daily message traffic, familygrams, the occasional mail call, BSP's and food onloads...Yeah, I guess other than that, they don't interact at all with the outside world.

Less than half the crew knows where they even are.

Ummmmm....No. You ever try to keep a secret on a submarine? I didn't think so. Anyone who wants to know, knows.

They never make port until the cruise is over.

Hmmmm....I wonder how I got to see Rosie Roads, Port Canaveral, Bermuda, Holy Loch, Faslane, Halifax, Pearl Harbor, San Diego....need I go on?

Yet another lesson in "If you don't know...stop talking".

 

[Brett327]

I agree with what you have said; however, they could also make them SIQ(same effect on crew as a flyoff) for the remainder of the cruise. SSNs would be able to medevac just like any other ship of the fleet, but the boomers with their short cruises and larger spaces could at least hold off until they reach safer waters or get back to port. It would not be comfortable for the pregnant women if she was kept aboard, but it seems like a necessary risk/consequence that women on subs should accept.

Additionally, if one boomer's location is compromised due to medevac there are several others in undisclosed locations to back it up so I really think that the pregnancy excuse to keep women off subs is bogus.

Agreed. You should all read OPNAVINST 6000.1C which already addresses 95% of the issues most of you are having trouble with. Under normal conditions, women can remain afloat up to their 20th week, so assuming pre-deployment screening was done, they could reasonably remain aboard their vessels for the duration of a standard patrol, eliminating the requirement for medevac. The pregnancy issue is not of significant enough impact to be seriously considered as a valid reason to exclude women from sub duty.

Brett

 

[Bevo16]

Stop applying your typical LCpl/Seaman experiences as well. They are not valid comparisons, because the amount of training/screening that goes into being a nuke submariner is only going to result in a handful of women who are probably more interested in their career than getting pregnant.

Not true. As someone who has been to enlisted nuke school, I can tell you for certain that the "amount of training/screening that goes into being a nuke submariner" is no greater than what it takes to be an enlisted aircrewman (or aircrewwoman, if we are being PC) or many other enlisted jobs. Most of the female nukes that I knew were already enjoying all of the attention that came with being one of the few females in a mostly male group. Several of them got married just to get the boost in BAH. I am sure that getting knocked up and missing a deployment would just break their hearts.

There is a difference between "caring about your career" and taking proactive steps to prevent pregancy. I am sure that a lot of the sailors working in Pass and ID offices or squadron Gee-dunks were really upset about their career progress when they found out they were pregnant. They are still out of their jobs for a year+ no matter how they feel about it, and someone else does the work.

 

[Bevo16]

Under normal conditions, women can remain afloat up to their 20th week, so assuming pre-deployment screening was done, they could reasonably remain aboard their vessels for the duration of a standard patrol, eliminating the requirement for medevac.

There is a difference between "can remain" and "will remain". It's the CO's call, and if they have been paying attention to message traffic and casualty reports for any length of time, they know keeping expectant mothers on the ship while underway is not a very good idea.

I have seen two SI cases in the past month where pregnant women have had to be flown off ship due to complications. One off the USS Blue Ridge, I forget the other ship, but it was in the Gulf.

 

[phrogpilot73]

As someone who has been to enlisted nuke school, I can tell you for certain that the "amount of training/screening that goes into being a nuke submariner" is no greater than what it takes to be an enlisted aircrewman (or aircrewwoman, if we are being PC) or many other enlisted jobs.

So your average Joe Schmoe Aircrewman needs a TS?

And let's not forget the ASVAB requirements:

AW: VE+MK+GS=152

CS(SS): AR+MK+EI+GS=200 or VE+AR+MK+MC=200
ET(SS): AR+MK+EI+GS=222 or VE+AR+MK+MC=222
FT(SS): AR+MK+EI+GS=222
MM(SS): VE+AR+MK+MC=210
SK (SS): AR+MK+EI+GS=200 or VE+AR+MK+MC=200
STS: AR+MK+EI+GS=222 or VE+AR+MK+MC=222
YN (SS): AR+MK+EI+GS=200 or VE+AR+MK+MC=200

You're right, they're practically the same. Except for the fact that a COOK on a submarine has to score higher on the ASVAB than ANY AW. Couple the requirements for a TS/SCI, the ASVAB score requirements, and the sheer number of women that WANT to serve on submarines (I would argue that it would number in the 10's, not the 100's) and I think that my point is still valid. For someone like that - an unwanted pregnancy is not going to happen. I know this for a fact.

 

[Bevo16]

So your average Joe Schmoe Aircrewman needs a TS?

Unwad your panties phrogpilot.

FYI, you don't need a TS to be a nuke or on a submarine. Secret only. That is the same clearance that any "Joe Schmoe" ASW aircrewman/rescue swimmer. Just in case you did not know, aircrew in the Navy can have pretty complex/technical jobs.

As if ASVAB scores and security clearances have anything to do with the ability of a junior sailor to control their sexual habits. :sleep_125

For someone like that - an unwanted pregnancy is not going to happen. I know this for a fact.

A fact. Really. That is amazing. You can determine the likleyhood that a woman will get pregnant by her ASVAB score? That is the most creative birth control method that I have ever heard of. Why, if I had thought of that, jfulginiti would not be all pissed off at me.

My wife has an MBA and was doing great in her career when we got pregnant. I guess she was not as smart as those enlisted nukes. Either that or my sperm had a really high security clearance that overrode all of her education.

 

[Spekkio]

If a young HS graduate wants to join the Navy (roughly 18 years old), then the deal is that the Navy is going to train her in a skill and expect her to use that skill to the benefit of the Navy, it's should not be to much to ask for her to live up to her part of the deal and not require a year off (or more) of sea duty to have a kid. After 5 years (boot camp, A-school, sea tour) she wants to go to shore duty and have a baby (at the ripe old age of 23)..good for her. Same for officers. 5 years is roughly equivelent to flight school + a JO tour. Graduate college at 22, finish your JO tour at 27, be a happy mom by 28 if you want. Anything short of that, is irresponsible.

What about women who choose to enlist or apply to OCS later than 18/22, respectively?

 

[Ducky]

Several of them got married just to get the boost in BAH.

Seriously??? That cannot be attributed as a female thing. That shit happens on both sides of the fence, and I would even argue it would be more so on the male side, because many of the women in the military get married to others in the military; therefore their BAH would not increase until they actually get a dependent, and even then it may be the other spouse that would claim the dependent.

The only necessary preventative action on pre-deployment/deployment pregnancy is education. If they still want to throw it away their career takes a hit/ give them the admin sep. Those who are truly valuable to the team will be in good health and ready to fight when the boat sets sail.

Bevo: "My wife has an MBA and was doing great in her career when we got pregnant. I guess she was not as smart as those enlisted nukes. Either that or my sperm had a really high security clearance that overrode all of her education."

Is your wife an active duty servicemember? If she is then you would know that active duty wives with careers on their mind have a slightly different outlook on when and where to get pregnant.

 

[Spekkio]

Isn't the pregnancy thing being blown out of proportion? How many male sailors are lost because they got into a motorcycle accident, got a DUI, decided to smoke pot on liberty, got into a barfight, broke their knee playing tackle football w/o pads with their friends compared to how many are lost to pregnancy? What is fact is that testosterone makes men undertake riskier activities, and those activities can lead to injury, arrest, or both.

So while we're calling for mandatory birth control, perhaps we should also look into confining all male servicemembers to their quarters during their first 4-5 years in service as well.

 

[Bevo16]

What about women who choose to enlist or apply to OCS later than 18/22, respectively?

In my fantasy "Bevo's Navy", they would join up with the understanding that their duty is to remain deployment ready for their first 5 years of service. IMHO, that is really not to much to ask. Complete an enlistment or sea tour without dumping your duties on your shipmates while you have a kid. What an incredible burden.

 

[Bevo16]

Seriously??? That cannot be attributed as a female thing. That shit happens on both sides of the fence, and I would even argue it would be more so on the male side, because many of the women in the military get married to others in the military; therefore their BAH would not increase until they actually get a dependent, and even then it may be the other spouse that would claim the dependent.

Now that I think about it, the primary motive might just have been so they could move off-base. Still, it was marriage for the sake of an ancillary benefit and the point is the same. And the point, just to be clear, is that junior sailors regardless of rate, security clearance, or ASVAB score will do stupid shit that will have a direct impact on their ability to deploy.

The only necessary preventative action on pre-deployment/deployment pregnancy is education. If they still want to throw it away their career takes a hit/ give them the admin sep. Those who are truly valuable to the team will be in good health and ready to fight when the boat sets sail.

You are smart, but alsy young and naïve. We give pre-deployment education to sailors on all kinds of things. Where to go on liberty, STD's, don't do drugs, use sunblock, don't punch out the local cops, on, and on, and on. They still get in trouble, get the clap, flunk piss tests, get sunburned, and thrown in jail. If education is all it took, a division officer's job would be much easier.

Also, an Admin Seperation is not going to give the unit another useful sailor to pick up the slack. It may save BUMED a few nickels, but the command who needs to fill out it's watch bill is still fucked.

Is your wife an active duty servicemember? If she is then you would know that active duty wives with careers on their mind have a slightly different outlook on when and where to get pregnant.

Nope, civilian. FWIW, the best department head that I ever had (and one of the finest officers and aviators that I ever worked with/for) is a woman. I am not a member of the "He-Man Woman Haters Club" or anything like that. I respect that women have a lot to contribute. I have also seen the horrible effects on readiness that losing members to unplanned pregnancy (or just having sluts onboard the ship) can cause on a unit. I have seen female officers get tagged for IA's only to get knocked up and have that assignment go to a male officer. It didn't matter that his wife was expecting. That's fair?

 

[Ducky]

Touche on the young and naive. We are pretty much on the same page with regards to expectations; just in disagreement with regards to appropriate preventative actions.

 

[Bevo16]

What effective measure would you suggest?

 

[phrogpilot73]

Unwad your panties phrogpilot.

I'm a Marine - I don't wear panties. We leave that for the Navy...

FYI, you don't need a TS to be a nuke or on a submarine. Secret only. That is the same clearance that any "Joe Schmoe" ASW aircrewman/rescue swimmer.

That I did not know.

Just in case you did not know, aircrew in the Navy can have pretty complex/technical jobs.

WOW. Holy Shit. I never would have thought. Seriously?

As if ASVAB scores and security clearances have anything to do with the ability of a junior sailor to control their sexual habits. :sleep_125

My argument is that there are a MYRIAD of factors leading to the success of a female submariner. Combine the ASVAB scores, security clearance requirement, maturity, and desire - and you don't end up with the same problems that manifest themselves among other rates. Desire is a huge part of it.

A fact. Really. That is amazing. You can determine the likleyhood that a woman will get pregnant by her ASVAB score? That is the most creative birth control method that I have ever heard of. Why, if I had thought of that, jfulginiti would not be all pissed off at me.

My wife has an MBA and was doing great in her career when we got pregnant. I guess she was not as smart as those enlisted nukes. Either that or my sperm had a really high security clearance that overrode all of her education.

I'm not predicting her likelihood based on ASVAB. I'm saying I know it for fact because of my insight into the mind of a career female in the military.

Was your wife in the military? No. My wife is. Women in the military are the same Type-A personalities that we are, they just happen to have a second X chromosome.

Amazingly, we don't have kids. We're planning them very carefully based on her career. Will there be an oops? No. There is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy.

The fact that they have gone through all the wickets to be a nuke submariner, they will be more focused on their success as a nuke submariner than all of the other bullshit you argue.

That's not to say 10-15 years after women are integrated into the submarine force that they don't turn into the typical Joe Schmoe sailor, with all of the problems they entail. The first several years? I stand by my statements.