Women issues

[MasterBates]

This thread is a prime example of why women =/= to men.

They just are not the same. Period.

If you want to play in a "man's field" be prepared to play by men's rules. We don't get months of light duty, or baby leave.

If you are in a squadron and get preggers, you have just made everyone else's job that much harder.

If you truly want to be a Naval Aviator, do it. But realize you cannot have your cake (Naval Avaiton) and eat it too (having kids before 35) unless you neglect one or the other. One is unfair to your squadronmates. One is unfair to your child. Neither is "right" IMHO.

 

[nittany03]

Why must it be so dang difficult for women????

Sounds like you need a lesson in biology, maybe the Navy isn't your best career path . . . you're clueless on how the Navy really is . . . The social experiment politicians forced on the military years ago is a failure.

Easy with it, people. Let's leave politics and invective out of the equation, please. The OP asked for advice, so give it if you have it. Brutal honesty is one thing; don't bash a female service member for being just that. She's at least trying to do right by all concerned and not be "that girl."

 

[bb1125]

I've got two boys, ages 7 and 4. I just graduated from OCS a couple of months ago and I'm currently in IFS and it's been hell on myself, my wife and my kids. I've got 10 years enlisted in the navy with many, many deployments under my belt and none of them have been as hard on us as the past 6 months.
Not saying your situation would be exactly the same as mine, but I would recommend waiting for shore duty. As MB said, you can't have both a kid and your career and give 100% to both. I find myself everyday either choosing not to spend time with my wife and kids or cutting short on some much needed studying. It's a difficult balance and your final decision should be made with the childs interests in mind. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Brett1]

The level of distraction that children create on a day to day basis in my professional life is immense, I cannot imagine the difficulty it would present to an aviator. No matter what you think parenthood will be like I can assure you it will be much different. Good luck with your decision but with this caveat..... you have a long time to be a parent but a very short time to take advantage of the opportunity to be a naval aviator.

 

[WheelsUpHeelsUp]

Easy with it, people. Let's leave politics and invective out of the equation, please. The OP asked for advice, so give it if you have it. Brutal honesty is one thing; don't bash a female service member for being just that. She's at least trying to do right by all concerned and not be "that girl."

No bashing intended, call it a Reality Check. As someone else explained she goes out someone else has to pick up the slack. Sounds like she "wants" to play Navy but also has other priorities as well. HUGE conflict there, survey says it ain't gonna work. THAT my friend isn't bashing but grim reality.

 

[robav8r]

This thread is a prime example of why women =/= to men.

They just are not the same. Period.

If you want to play in a "man's field" be prepared to play by men's rules. We don't get months of light duty, or baby leave.

If you are in a squadron and get preggers, you have just made everyone else's job that much harder.

If you truly want to be a Naval Aviator, do it. But realize you cannot have your cake (Naval Avaiton) and eat it too (having kids before 35) unless you neglect one or the other. One is unfair to your squadronmates. One is unfair to your child. Neither is "right" IMHO.

MB - you beat me too it. Perfectly said !!!

 

[hscs]

I am going to tell you that you really need to think about this -- more than you already have. You are going to move a couple of times when you are in the whole flight school/FRS deal. You are going to be studying your a-- off, no matter what platform you are in. Once you finish the FRS, you will go to sea. No one in flight school or the FRS is going to care whether or not you have a kid -- they will expect you to perform just like everyone else. The schedule is unpredictable and can change with surge deployments. Oh yeah, and we are at war, so that can change things at a moments notice. If for some reason your squadron is underutilized, expect to go on an IA to Iraq or Afganistan. Top jobs in aviation for shore tours tend to be flying billets (FRS, Weapons schools, NSAWC, Flight school) -- your CO will not take very kindly on you having a planned pregnancy in that tour.

So here is what you and your significant other need to discuss -- Is he willing to stay at home and not work, taking himself out of the workforce while you drag him around the country? If he does want to work, does he want the vast majority of his paycheck going to childcare, and will he want to deal with a kid after he finished a 12 hour day while you are overseas? Are you going to be able to deal emotionally with deploying to a war zone after having a kid? If you have a kid later, are you willing to take an "off ramp" job for your second tour so that you can have a kid?

I don't think my wife and I when we were engaged could have answered any of these questions appropriately. I don't care how long you have known each other, but I am guessing that he really doesn't know how the navy works. Plenty of people have kids after 35 -- I would not risk harming your marriage, just so that you can avoid getting tagged with the "high risk pregnancy". These days -- having a hang nail will get you put in the "high risk pregnancy" category.

 

[smittyrunr]

As there aren't a lot of female aviators around here, here is my view, a female pilot about 2 years into my first sea tour:
To answer your question, what happens to a BDCP select who later becomes pregnant...
I can't speak to while you are still in college or OCS.
If you become pregnant in flight school you will be put on hold until after you have the baby. I believe the new policy is that they won't put you back on full duty until 6 months later, but I don't know for sure. When you come back, depending on where your training stopped, you wil have some sort of refresher/warm up flights and the pick up where you left off. I know of one pilot I was in flight school with who became pregnant, she did finish and did so very successfully, but it was not easy for her. Any delay in training will mess up your timing, possibly causing your platform or location selection to be not what you expected.
If you become pregnant while on your first sea (squadron) tour you are non-deployable. Depending on the squadron/community you may stay in the squadron or be sent to the local wing/base for admin work. Your squadron does not receive a replacement for you while you are gone, so the other Officers are flying more and taking up the slack for the ground job you are not doing while gone.
Your shore tour can be non-flying. However, the competetive billets are the flying billets. Now, the low Dept Head selection rates right now may not continue, but the way I look at it (maybe a bit cynically) is that by not going for flying orders you are certainly less competetive to be selected for jobs late on and will be out of the Navy sooner than you might have thought. You can take flying orders, let's look at flight school (VT) instructor as an example: unlike your sea tour, you can stay in the squadron, but you cannot fly: 1- an ejection seat, or 2- single piloted aircraft. While flying with a student (non-qualified) pilot you are considered single piloted, so no flying there. I doubt you will be ranked as high coming out of that tour as if you were able to fly the whole time you are there.

Some of this is probably much further down the road than you are thinking right now, but these are things you, and any other female aviator, should think about before committing to this.

 

[soccermaniac723]

This thread is a prime example of why women =/= to men.

They just are not the same. Period.

If you want to play in a "man's field" be prepared to play by men's rules. We don't get months of light duty, or baby leave.

If you are in a squadron and get preggers, you have just made everyone else's job that much harder.

If you truly want to be a Naval Aviator, do it. But realize you cannot have your cake (Naval Avaiton) and eat it too (having kids before 35) unless you neglect one or the other. One is unfair to your squadronmates. One is unfair to your child. Neither is "right" IMHO.

This thread is going into a different path than the one I intended. I simply wanted to know how some pilots or NFO's dealt with having families and careers when they are both so demanding. I have said before that I don't want to be the one burdening the rest of my comrades. I did 6 years of active duty and did two different 6+ month deployments. I worked in a "man's field" (fire controlman) and know how angry the guys can get when women get to leave sea duty to have children. They are quite bitter. I know the rules when it comes to ships and what people say when a woman becomes pregnant. I just didn't know it would actually be worse in the aviation community.

I actually think that other than intellect and intellectual capacity, men and women are NOT equal. Our bodies are different and the way we handle ourselves due to hormones is different as well. I am a woman and will never be a man nor do I want to pretend to be a man while doing a so called man's job. I actually think that unless it involves me having to physically compete against a man, I can do anything a guy can as well. I have enjoyed the Navy and don't wish to "play" Navy either as I know how surge deployments and random crap can happen at anytime especially now. I was there right after 9-11 so I know exactly what can and most likely will happen.

My fiancee is quite aware of the possible job duties as well as my mother and his mother. I'm just lucky to have great people to back me up whenever necessary. The whole parenting thing and neglecting one or the other can go for anyone in the military including non-aviators and both sexes. A man can't dedicate all of his time to one and not the other so I think the dilemma is the same for both sexes don't you think? So shouldn't the "having your cake and eating it too" apply to everyone? If this is the case should all parents be kicked out since they will most likely be neglecting their job?

Oh and for the person talking about being SAR, I'm not a full time reservist, I just do the weekend thing while going to school.

 

[Herc_Dude]

The whole parenting thing and neglecting one or the other can go for anyone in the military including non-aviators and both sexes. A man can't dedicate all of his time to one and not the other so I think the dilemma is the same for both sexes don't you think? So shouldn't the "having your cake and eating it too" apply to everyone? It his is the case should all parents be kicked out since they will most likely be neglecting their job?

Men don't have their bodies totally transformed while growing a child for 9 months. A man who's wife is pregnant doesn't have to lose 9 months of proficiency in his profession while growing a baby. A man of a young infant is not producing the sole source of nutrition (ok, yes there is formula...) etc etc etc ...
I'm one of those men who believe that women can do many things, most things in our society. However, once a child becomes involved, I get tired of seeing kids thrown to the side while mommy runs back to work full time. Don't leave your kid high and dry. We need to raise good ones to keep this great land going, and I don't think we are making them fast enough... /end sidebar

 

[ChunksJR]

Fair enuf, as a married guy, no kids I'll give you my answers. Since you're in the same boat, maybe our (my wife and I) decisions can help you. There are a lot of rambling sentences below...simply stated...if you want to fly, wait to have kids. As an instructor of advanced students, the strain on the family is tough. The strain on the Operations department when you come in and can't fly because your husband refused to take the kid to the emergency room at 2am is enough to make me vomit...

I simply wanted to know how some pilots or NFO's dealt with having families and careers when they are both so demanding.

We don't. Our careers are too demanding. Wife just turned 26, luvs her job as an advertising sales rep. I have a shore tour which is more demanding and time consuming that my first sea tour.

I have said before that I don't want to be the one burdening the rest of my comrades. I did 6 years of active duty and did two different 6+ month deployments. I worked in a "man's field" (fire controlman) and know how angry the guys can get when women get to leave sea duty to have children. They are quite bitter. I know the rules when it comes to ships and what people say when a woman becomes pregnant.

Who cares? Other people who are concerned with your decisions regarding your family shouldn't be...so don't worry about them. But, be prepared to make sacrifices for them just as you made sacrifices for your family. If you aren't ready to do that, than you should really think about being in the Navy AND having kids. If you are ready to do that, which based on you trying to explain the help you'll get, than go for it.

I just didn't know it would actually be worse in the aviation community.

It's not...It's the same.

I actually think that other than intellect and intellectual capacity, men and women are NOT equal. Our bodies are different and the way we handle ourselves due to hormones is different as well. I am a woman and will never be a man nor do I want to pretend to be a man while doing a so called man's job. I actually think that unless it involves me having to physically compete against a man, I can do anything a guy can as well.

Alright, I'm not Dr. Phil, nor do I wish to be. On an intellectual level, I'm better than Dr. Phil...let's let this one die.

I have enjoyed the Navy and don't wish to "play" Navy either as I know how surge deployments and random crap can happen at anytime especially now. I was there right after 9-11 so I know exactly what can and most likely will happen.

Since you understand, than you know the right decision...can you be 100% happy sacrificing time for the Navy? Can you be 100% happy sacrificing the equal time to your family? Which ever is the lesser evils, I say you go with. As for me, I know that I can't sacrifice one more than the other...which is why we're not having kids. Jess can give her job up to have children. Unfortunately, it's not the same biologically on your side of the house.

A man can't dedicate all of his time to one and not the other so I think the dilemma is the same for both sexes don't you think?

No. Biologically I cannot have a baby. Therefore I cannot decide when to have the kids. My wife, however, can. She also controls the ingestion of those little blue pills...

So shouldn't the "having your cake and eating it too" apply to everyone?

If you equate having kids = serving in the US Navy unconditionally with equal love, than yes. I don't think that applies in most situations. Serving family and serving country are 2 separate and unequal things. You can't equate one to the other.

If this is the case should all parents be kicked out since they will most likely be neglecting their job?

No, obviously not...but they shouldn't hesitate to "neglect their family" in the same way they are "neglecting their job" if they are indeed looking for EQUAL participation in their mind.

Oh and for the person talking about being SAR, I'm not a full time reservist, I just do the weekend thing while going to school.

And is that your continued desire for level of commitment? If it is, than I would recommend another occupation than Naval Aviator. It's not a part-time job.

Just a few thoughts...the wife is working out so I had time to write a bit.

 

[llnick2001]

Flight school is a time when the student should be focused on flight school, not baby raising. Some people do it (I've only seen fathers myself, no mothers) but nearly all rely on a spouse or live in relative to bare the majority of the burden. Yes it can be done, but, and that's a big but, it isn't a good idea. You may be able to handle it, but it will certainly make an already hard life harder, and it is a gamble. Confidence is important, but why not wait until you can better enjoy your children and be a better parent to them. I would advise anyone (male or female) to wait to have children.

 

[FMRAM]

I've got two boys, ages 7 and 4. I just graduated from OCS a couple of months ago and I'm currently in IFS and it's been hell on myself, my wife and my kids. I've got 10 years enlisted in the navy with many, many deployments under my belt and none of them have been as hard on us as the past 6 months.
Not saying your situation would be exactly the same as mine, but I would recommend waiting for shore duty. As MB said, you can't have both a kid and your career and give 100% to both. I find myself everyday either choosing not to spend time with my wife and kids or cutting short on some much needed studying. It's a difficult balance and your final decision should be made with the childs interests in mind. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Why do we need to have kids again?

 

[raptor10]

Why do we need to have kids again?

Because I like brand name polo shirts at third world prices!

 

[blur]

man...thanks for making me laugh at something that is oh so not right...