NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[azguy]

As others have said, a VFA JO section can fly into badguystan and drop a bomb with almost no "adult" supervision.

To get a TLAM on target, in addition to whatever is going on aboard the DDG/CG, you have a whole cell full of people back at a HQ or on the CVN doing all sorts of crap to manage it (some of whom are aviators, btw). So even then, the shooter's skipper, TAO, strike officer, etc isn't running the fight in the same way a JO in a pointy nosed jet is.

Having been in VFA land for my first tour and now working alongside SWOs who care about blowing stuff up, I can see why some folks like AZguy are adamant that their community does care about warfighting. But I still don't see them as coming close to the pointy nosed guys.

I can't really disagree with anything you've said here, at the LT level, even as a slimy RL guy.

Maybe the best way to re-state my above post would be to note that we all "peak" at different points in our career. The most tactical aviators -- I won't name any specific community as someone will clearly get butthurt -- will probably hit their most tactical tour as a patch-wearing LT TRAINO or maybe DH. In the CRUDES world, you gain more and more responsibility as you rise through the ranks. LT TAOs can squeeze off missiles/torps/trons to defend the force...maybe do a little OCA and deliberate attack, depending on your definition... The CDR CO obviously gains much, much more responsibility to act offensively in a multi-domain fight (hint: your quote above betrays a misunderstanding of TLAM employment)...and to over-rule the TAO if he or she is in CIC.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Meh, while ultimately a VFA JO is "alone and unafraid" (both statements are not without caveats, such as "I have a wingman" and "night traps are scary"), you are a slave to the AOC/CAOC/JAOC, and are being micromanaged to death by them. In a truly efficient and lethal world, that would not be the case, but Generals are going to General. There is some more autonomy under JTAC control, but at the end of the day, they are slaves to some extent as well, if we are talking offensive fires.

 

[BigRed389]

Meh, while ultimately a VFA JO is "alone and unafraid" (both statements are not without caveats, such as "I have a wingman" and "night traps are scary"), you are a slave to the AOC/CAOC/JAOC, and are being micromanaged to death by them. In a truly efficient and lethal world, that would not be the case, but Generals are going to General. There is some more autonomy under JTAC control, but at the end of the day, they are slaves to some extent as well, if we are talking offensive fires.

Thanks for injecting some rationality to the dicussion.

I don't really give a shit about who holds the "pointier stick" or whatever, but some of the assumptions made by others on this thread about the roles of a TAO or how a CRUDES CIC is run are far off base.

Quite bluntly, due to the multirole capabilities of the platform, the limitations of timing (billet/unit/training) most SWOs aren't fully competent to talk about all warfighting a CRUDES asset is capable of...so basing assumptions off sea stories, rolling through CIC as LNO during COMTUEX, or standing CVN TAO is absurd.

And I still have no idea what any of this has to do with the Air Force.

 

[HuggyU2]

And I still have no idea what any of this has to do with the Air Force.

And don't ask your resident AF bitch either. I don't understand most of the Navy acronyms used.
You may as well write it in Cyrillic.
Это дерьмо делает нет смысла для меня.

 

[Recovering LSO]

And I still have no idea what any of this has to do with the Air Force.

To see where the wheels came off, see: posts #2 and #4 on the first page of this thread.

 

[magnetfreezer]

Thanks for injecting some rationality to the dicussion.

I don't really give a shit about who holds the "pointier stick" or whatever, but some of the assumptions made by others on this thread about the roles of a TAO or how a CRUDES CIC is run are far off base.

Quite bluntly, due to the multirole capabilities of the platform, the limitations of timing (billet/unit/training) most SWOs aren't fully competent to talk about all warfighting a CRUDES asset is capable of...so basing assumptions off sea stories, rolling through CIC as LNO during COMTUEX, or standing CVN TAO is absurd.

And I still have no idea what any of this has to do with the Air Force.

The AOC comment was likely directed at the extreme micromanagement of the air war (generals directly approving tactical decisions) that CENTCOM practiced for 15 years (and has gotten worse in OIR). The challenge for USAF/USN/USMC aviation is training to execute independently in the way everyone has described, so when we fight an enemy who can challenge our C2 links/nodes the mission still gets done.

WRT the SWO expertise comment, has the SWO community thought of doing anything similar to TOPGUN/NAWDC or Air Force weapons school to produce a cadre of SWOs that are the tactical experts in all things AEGIS, SM-X, Tomahawk, etc?

 

[Recovering LSO]

WRT the SWO expertise comment, has the SWO community thought of doing anything similar to TOPGUN/NAWDC or Air Force weapons school to produce a cadre of SWOs that are the tactical experts in all things AEGIS, SM-X, Tomahawk, etc?

Yes.

 

[BigRed389]

Yes.

To be honest, the way the program is being run I have seen way more pub nerds rather than experienced TAOs who've been there done that or good instructors. Good for improving community planning/systems knowledge at least. But perhaps not what aviation produces for its community.

It's opened up to CWOs/LDOs as well now, so hopefully that balance improves over time.

 

[Pags]

To be honest, the way the program is being run I have seen way more pub nerds rather than experienced TAOs who've been there done that or good instructors. Good for improving community planning/systems knowledge at least. But perhaps not what aviation produces for its community.

It's opened up to CWOs/LDOs as well now, so hopefully that balance improves over time.

Sounds just like brown shoe patch wearers.

 

[armada1651]

Sounds just like brown shoe patch wearers.

As much as I abhor the Kool-Aid, I wouldn't characterize TOPGUN products that way.

 

[Pags]

As much as I abhor the Kool-Aid, I wouldn't characterize TOPGUN products that way.

my experience is relatively ancient and was SWTP vice SFWTP but I remember the process being very pub and minutia* heavy. But maybe that's was then and it's been improved.

*"on slide 45 of your 130 slide brief you called it a 'm240' as opposed to an 'M240'."
"Where you confused about what type of weapon we were employing because of the lack of capitalization?"
"No, but it's still wrong and shows lack of attention to detail."
"Cool, thanks for the great debrief. It's 0330, can I go home?"

 

[armada1651]

my experience is relatively ancient and was SWTP vice SFWTP but I remember the process being very pub and minutia* heavy. But maybe that's was then and it's been improved.

*"on slide 45 of your 130 slide brief you called it a 'm240' as opposed to an 'M240'."
"Where you confused about what type of weapon we were employing because of the lack of capitalization?"
"No, but it's still wrong and shows lack of attention to detail."
"Cool, thanks for the great debrief. It's 0330, can I go home?"

There is still substantial unnecessary effort spent on trivial bullshit, don't get me wrong. That's one of the reasons for my aforementioned distaste for said Kool-Aid. I'm just saying for the most part, our patch wearers are the tactical experts and quality instructors they're intended to be.

 

[nittany03]

my experience is relatively ancient and was SWTP vice SFWTP but I remember the process being very pub and minutia* heavy. But maybe that's was then and it's been improved.

There is still substantial unnecessary effort spent on trivial bullshit, don't get me wrong. That's one of the reasons for my aforementioned distaste for said Kool-Aid. I'm just saying for the most part, our patch wearers are the tactical experts and quality instructors they're intended to be.

I'm sure each community is slightly different, and no system is perfect. I saw a couple of real pieces of work in my fleet tour. But they were most definitely the exception to the rule. And for the most part, everyone who worked with them knew who they were, and adjusted accordingly. I do think the Navy in my experience struggles a bit with distinguishing "person who is a good individual aviator" with "person who is a good teacher of others." (Not that there's not significant overlap) But I wouldn't characterize the community of patch-wearers in general as people who consistently lose the forest for the trees. YMMV.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I do think the Navy in my experience struggles a bit with distinguishing "person who is a good individual aviator" with "person who is a good teacher of others."

Tell me where in life this doesn't hold true. Good golfer? Teach me. Calculus makes great sense in your head? Teach me. I can tie my shoes like a boss. Having a hard time teaching the kid to do it though.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Tell me where in life this doesn't hold true. Good golfer? Teach me. Calculus makes great sense in your head? Teach me. I can tie my shoes like a boss. Having a hard time teaching the kid to do it though.

IMO, good teaching is the difference between telling your kid the old ditty about the rabbit running around the tree and ducking into his den (and the patience for a demo or twelve) vs. hammering your kid because his laces are a couple of inches uneven and making him re-lace his shoes until they're perfect. The latter is where the wheels often fall off the wagon for some teachers, regardless of profession, but the former is standardization, which has a lot of value in ensuring people learn what they need to know.

FWIW, I've seen guys who struggled with a particular skill end up being far better teachers than guys who took to it from the beginning. The latter often has trouble seeing how someone could struggle with something they find easy, so it's harder for them to relate the material and stay patient with a student.