121 Die in Greek Air Crash after co-pilot found slumped on controls and no pilot

[A4sForever]

Well, I guess it's unfortunate that you think we all know nothing about commercial aviation and its associated training requirements and procedures.

Jesus Christ. It's not what I think that matters. It's just the way it is ..... And it's not "unfortunate"; it's just that you don't know much. Perhaps you'd be happier if I said "don't know too much"?? And that's "unfortunate" ... but tell me, all you Naval Aviators, NFO's, SWO's, PPL's, CMEL's, CFI's, FE's, ATP's, et'al .... how many accident sites/accident boards have you been on ... ??? How is it that the AW "Commandos" are more than willing to speculate on civilian mishaps/accidents --- but take a "hand's-off policy" on military crash & burns --- is this major-league hypocracy, front-and-center, or what ???

I do think there is some inconsistency in the desire to talk about commericial crashes vs. milititary mishaps.

..... Correct. You got that right ......

However, I can also understand the desire to keep things that happen in the military secret as most of the causes of those mishaps only apply to military aviation. It is frustrating to me, but understandable none the less.

Secret??? What's the secret??? I've been on way too many military accident boards, and "military secrecy" was never the reason .... it's no less the case in "civilian" aviation .... what makes you think it's any different???

... There are several folks on this board who hold ATP certificates and even those who have flown for commerical airlines ....... I'm sure that just because they are only "nuggets" in their squadron doesn't suddenly make them ignorant of the "procedures, aircraft, and relative states of training of the civilians."

"ATP's" ?? "Nuggets"??? .... Actually, that is EXACTLY the case .... and it's not that hard to acquire an ATR certificate (got $$$$ ????) . I know as I got one a long time ago even though I was not qualified to "wear it" it on my sleeve as a qualification. And to your point that they're "nuggets" .... that's the whole point , Steve --- they don't know too much .... that's why they're "nuggets" .....

I realize that their experience may not measure up to that of a 747 Captain. However, that doesn't make their opinions any less valid does it?

.... This is the second time you have been right/half-right on this thread/post .... "their" experience DOESN'T "measure up" to 19,000+ flight hours acquired in over 36 years of aviating. I'm NOT "special" because I've got it --- I just "got" it. Others on this board will get as much flight time if they cross their "T's" and dot their "I's". But therein lies the problem for most AW "Commandos"on this site --- "their" opinions are interesting, but they don't matter. "Their opinions" rate right down there with those who speculate on most things combat-related --- when they have not spent an hour in combat. Their opinions might be interesting for discussion and speculation, but they are immaterial. In other words, no matter how much you might want your "opinion" to matter, it just doesn't ..... why??? Because you "know nothing", if you will .... but maybe someday you will. A general statement, granted, but let's bring it back to the specific of this thread: "you-all" don't know anything about this accident but are more than willing to speculate. That's hypocritical when you choose to censor similar discussions and speculation on military accidents.

And just so there's no confusion: I like most guys who are Aviators or those who like aviation .... we all share a common bond. Senior guys brought me along ---- I like to bring the junior guys along --- where would I be, had not some "old guy" taken me under his wing ??? But I also know the score, and you can't B.S. an "experienced", senior B.S.'er. A friendly suggestion: don't try ..... :captain_1

 

[A4sForever]

Mr. *Ahem* "Mefesto" ..... On any given day --- any of us can be a Blue Angel or a Plumber. Time in the saddle is no guarantee on having all the answers. I'm sure you get the allusion ... since you're "experienced".

The best thing I've got going for me is that I realize how much I know ... and how little I know .... Let's hope most of you make it there someday ...

The point was....... calling out the repeated hypocracy on certain subjects evidenced by some on Air Warriors who really DON'T know what they are talking about. If you're not a hypocrite .... or if you do know what you're talking about ... then it didn't apply to you, did it. On the other hand, if you are or you don't .... then it did. ALOHA

 

[A4sForever]

Not to enflame the situation... but this report is why we don't like guys talking Navy accident stuff on the board.

No, of course not --- there's no flaming on this, certainly not from me. But, this is my point ... let's be consistent. Discuss all the crash & burns or none of them ... the same rules should apply with regard to speculation, informed or otherwise, civilian or military. How can you pick and choose what some reporter will or will not choose to "report" on ??? You already have at least one "journalist" that visits this site and participates on a regular basis. Where do you draw the lines ?? I know you don't like the word, but let's not venture into more "hypocracy" on the subject of what is and is not "suitable" for AW. Just figure it out and stick with it .....

...Just how do you get toxic gases out of an A/C pack?!?!?!

... in my experience ... you don't, even if the pack burns up. But that's speculation and the uninformed press talking ... you remember HAZMAT and ValueJet 592, right? HAZMAT ... or "hidden shipments" in passenger baggage. All kinds of things can go wrong in the belly or the cabin that COULD cause noxious or incapacitating fumes to develop onboard. Or it could have just been a loss of pressurization with no masks on in the cockpit. If a pressurization malfunction followed the "book", then it depends on the crew and their level of training to perform a timely emergency response .... doesn't look like they responded here. The quesition is why???

I don't think there is any hipocracy going on, but a concerted effort by the members of this board to make sure that the info the Navy WANTS released to the public (emphasis mine)

And Yeah, O.K., I "get it" in your last post. Question: is this a "NAVY" or a "public" website??? I hear you guys talking and you like to have it both ways. When you pick and choose what is suitable for discussion it will always censor some of what interests people on AW, quell sometimes worthwhile discussions, and put the overall subject matter content in the hands of a few anointed --- or am I just crazy???

Granted, it's not my website and I have no say in the decisions ... I just like consistency --- unless, of course, I decide to change my mind. Then I like "flexibility" ....

The funny thing is ... all this started because I criticised some for "speculation" on a civilian accident --- the very thing that gets someone spanked on AW when it applies to military accidents. And you don't see the hypocracy???

 

[A4sForever]

We cool??!?!?

Of course, always, wouldn't have it any other way .... .... another thing I've learned: life is too short.

 

[Schnugg]

Whew....:icon_smil

 

[nugget81]

Well now that that's over, yahoo news is reporting that investigators found the bodies "frozen solid". They must have been unpressurized for some time - sounds very similar to the Payne Stewart crash.

I'm not an accident investigator, but I play one on TV...

 

[Steve Wilkins]

A4's, I thought I was easy to get spun up....but I have to say, you take the cake in that category.

...but tell me, all you Naval Aviators, NFO's, SWO's, PPL's, CMEL's, CFI's, FE's, ATP's, et'al .... how many accident sites/accident boards have you been on ... ???

This is an interesting question. Do you know the answer? I know I don't. Who knows, maybe there's a couple NTSB investigators who are members of AW. My initial reaction to your post was based on what I thought was you coming down on a few of the guys based on your belief (my perception) that these guys "know nothing" about what they are talking about in terms of commercial aviation, or in fact, nobody on AW does except for you. And if this is something you do believe, yes, that is unfortunate. However, after following your line of thought it seems to me that I may have misunderstood you in that your frustration was based on people talking about an accident in which they "know nothing" about. Am I correct on this?

I think we see eye to eye on the "hypocracy" found in discussing civilian crashes and not military crashes. Understand the post written above was PWI, and now that I'm my SWO self this morning, I don't feel like being very understanding about why aviation accidents aren't discussed. I am willing to accept that they shouldn't be talked about until news sources report on it. AW is not a news source. However, once the story is out, let the speculating begin. I personally find interesting discussion in those topics. For the last 15 years or so, I have consistently read NTSB aviation accident reports and even several books on why aviation accidents happen, so I may be a bit more interested in these types of discussions than the average AW member.

Having an ATP does not mean you know anything about commercial aviation or transport catagory aircraft.

I agree, to an extent. Given that one of the requirements of the ATP is the Commerical Cert, I think it's a safe bet that the applicant has to know something about commercial aviation. I used the term 'commercial aviation' broadly, not necessarily applying strictly to transport category aircraft. I agree that a holder of the ATP cert may know little to nothing about this latter category of aircraft and their associated flight operations. But commercial aviation is more than just the airlines and FedEx et al. My point in the ATP comment was that not everyone is a "know nothing," but I've addressed that line of thought already.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Ladies, ladies!

 

[wink]

OK, lets not be sanctimonious and hypocritical. Speculating about mishaps happens by all pilots all the time. It is part of good hangar flying. We learn even as the discussion diverges from the meager facts we know. When I go to work Thursady I am sure this mishap will come up somewhere over KS at 35,000 feet. We will likely discuss how such an out come would be possible in our airline in our model aircraft. What is important is that this discussion, speculation, never draws any conclusions about the performance of the crew, until the investigation is complete, and, it doesn't take place in public. AW is a public forum. Discuss it in the kitchen slicing limes, discretely over a beer in the pub, or even the back of the ready room. It is instructive to discuss hypoxia and how a particular pressurization system works, but pointless to discuss whether the cockpit O2 was even on or the O2 was tainted, etc. All that said, I do believe there should be a small difference between how we handle military mishaps on AW then civilian ones.

 

[highlyrandom]

Some Russian guy once demonstrated (by accident) that one could expect more or less nine seconds of useful consciousness. -In vacuum-.

Now the real unfortunate aspect of this is that even if someone did have the presence of mind to run up front from oxygen mask to oxygen mask and find out what was up, the armored door would have been locked. So it goes.

If I were a genius, I'd invent a way for the plane to go into level 10000' 180kts "safe" mode if above 15K and both pilots' (pulse oximeter clipped to your ear behind the headphone) blood O2 drops off and the warning system isn't disabled within 30 seconds. Or do away with the armored doors.
/end idealism
Sorry it happened.

 

[Fly Navy]

Question: Did ICAO implement the same armored doors and locks that the FAA did in the United States? This was a foreign air carrier, operating outside of the USA, NOT American. They don't have the same rules.

 

[highlyrandom]

I love to fly, as a passenger or as a pilot...but I don't enjoy Eastern European airlines. No boarding groups for one...took an Olympic Air 747 I was on over 2 hours to board, what with the goats and the families of twelve. You put your life and everyone else's in the hands of the 2-3 guys up front; parachutes are illegal, interfering is illegal, etc. All I'm saying is that should this ever happen in the States, those two furloughed com-air pilots in Seat 24 conscious enough to do anything about it in time aren't allowed to meddle. Otherwise suggesting an automatic emergency descent system would be overkill.

 

[Fly Navy]

So.... those two furloughed pilots are sharing a seat...

 

[highlyrandom]

And said global domination system also squawks 7700 and broadcasts on guard. Better an Embraer out of Istanbul has to do a hard turn to the left, than an entire plane with no mechanical difficulty experiencing CFIT. Anyway, sorry yeah it's wishful thinking.

 

[highlyrandom]

Row 24, sorry.