121 Die in Greek Air Crash after co-pilot found slumped on controls and no pilot

[Brett327]

Would this system take into accound other possible aircraft that might be at 10000' at the time? Just a thought before your evil genius leads us to world domination jk. Good thought though.

Kind of far fetched, but for the sake of argument, any emergency descent (autopilot or human pilot initiated) would, by definition, constitute the declaration of an emergency, so the jet would be squawking appropriately, causing ATC to clear everyone out of the way. Midair is probably the least of your worries. I hope your nifty safety device has some built in DTED data, else CFIT.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

A4's, I thought I was easy to get spun up....but I have to say, you take the cake in that category.

... O.K., I'll take the cake; I like cake. I like pie, too. But guys who talk out of both sides of their mouths make me tired ...... makes me want to kill them, but not go to jail.

....... However, after following your line of thought it seems to me that I may have misunderstood you in that your frustration was based on people talking about an accident in which they "know nothing" about. Am I correct on this?

... Actually, EXACTLY, actually ....

....I think we see eye to eye on the "hypocracy" found in discussing civilian crashes and not military crashes. ...I agree, to an extent....

... now you're just trying to get me excited, aren't you ??? Be gentle -- I'm old.

And I think we all see eye-to-eye on this, at least most of us. I hate internet forums where you can't "really" exchange ideas or talk without the time lapse and misunderstandings that the typed word might convey --- frequently incorrectly. Discussions --- like Stevie and Wink said, will always take place and should have a place here like they do in the "real world". Speculation is often misinformed, but as long as it is not malicious or just stupid, sometimes it is a starting place for an investigation --- as speculation usually has a prescedent in a previous accident.

I guess my b!tch was the willingness of some herein to pick apart a civilian accident juxtaposed against the near Nazi-like shut-down of any military accident discussions on AW by others "until the investigation is complete". Again, let's be consistent. Reporting names and accidents here prior to an official media or PAO release is never appropriate --- but discussions and even informed "speculation" about aircraft mishaps leads to healthy considerations re: aircraft systems, safety, and the business of flying that most of us are in ..... that was my gripe. It's sometimes tough to get across on a stupid forum --- of course, this present forum is excepted.

I feel so warm and fuzzy now ...... I will do whatever you say, I will do whatever you say, I will do whatever you say ..... :sleep_125

 

[highlyrandom]

hokay, I did all of 0.0 research on any of these subjects...thanks for gettin the info

 

[mules83]

And again already in exsistence and has been in testing in Alaska for about the last 5 years. It's called ADS-B.

This system was thrown into a majority of embry-riddle a/c. It works great cause flying in the daytona and orlando area sucks with all the traffic.

 

[mules83]

It is unbelievable how many a/c you dont see and how close they get. After flying with that system, my scan is crazy when i go flying in a/c without it.

 

[A4sForever]

UPDATE:

Greek Coroner says 6 Alive When Cypriot Plane Crashed

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif]Aug 15, 10:09 PM (ET) By PATRICK QUINN

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) Investigators examine the tail of a Cypriot airliner that crashed, killing all 121[/font]



ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Initial autopsies showed that at least six of the 121 people aboard a Cypriot plane were alive but not necessarily conscious when the aircraft crashed while on autopilot, a coroner said Monday, as authorities struggled to explain the actions of the pilot and crew.

The results of the first six autopsies shed some light on the final minutes of Helios Airlines Flight ZU522, which crashed Sunday into a hillside in suburban Athens, killing all 115 passengers and six crew members. But they failed to answer all the questions.

In Larnaca, the Cypriot city where the flight took off, police raided the offices of Helios Airlines, seeking "evidence which could be useful for the investigation into possible criminal acts," said Cypriot deputy presidential spokesman Marios Karoyian.

Greek aviation officials have said the plane apparently lost pressure suddenly, causing a rapid loss of oxygen on board. In that case, passengers and flight crew would have had only seconds to put on oxygen masks before losing consciousness amid subzero temperatures. Death would be minutes behind.

if ((typeof tag336_2) == 'function') {tag336_2();} But two fighter jet pilots who scrambled to intercept the plane saw the co-pilot slumped over, oxygen masks in the plane dangling, and two unidentified people trying to take control of the plane. The pilot was not in his seat when the plane crashed, about 2 1/2 hours after the crew first radioed in air conditioning problems, officials said.

The fire department has said none of the bodies had masks on their faces.

"It's odd," said Terry McVenes, executive air safety chairman for the Air Line Pilots Association, International. "It's a very rare event to even have a pressurization problem and in general crews are very well trained to deal with it."

Athens' chief coroner, Fillipos Koutsaftis, said he could not determine whether the six people whose bodies were examined were conscious when the Helios Airways Boeing 737-300 plunged 34,000 feet into a mountainous area near the village of Grammatiko, 25 miles north of Athens.

"Our conclusion is they had circulation and were breathing at the time of death," Koutsaftis said, but stressed: "I cannot rule out that they were unconscious."

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) Investigators search wreckage at the crash site of a Cypriot airliner[/font]

Officials in the coroner's office said ongoing autopsies on another six bodies were likely to show similar results. They asked not be named because the results had not yet been publicly released.

Greek and Cypriot officials have ruled out terrorism as a cause of the crash.

Investigators, to be joined by U.S. experts, were sending the plane's data and cockpit voice recorders to France for expert examinations.

But the head of the Greek airline safety committee, Akrivos Tsolakis, said the voice recorder was damaged. "It's in a bad state and, possibly, it won't give us the information we need," he said.

The pilots of two Greek air force F-16 fighter planes scrambled to intercept the plane after it lost contact with air traffic control shortly after entering Greek airspace said they saw the co-pilot slumped over the controls. The pilot did not appear to be in the cockpit, and oxygen masks were seen dangling in the cabin.

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) A man reacts as he leaves the Athens morgue Monday Aug. 15, 2005.[/font]

The fighter jet pilots also saw two people possibly trying to take control of the plane; it was unclear if they were crew members or passengers.

The plane might have run out of fuel after flying on autopilot, air force officials said, asking not to be named in line with Greek practice.

Searchers still were looking for three bodies, including the plane's German pilot, fire officials said. The body of the Cypriot co-pilot was found in the cockpit.

After the crash, authorities said it appeared to have been caused by a technical failure - resulting in high-altitude decompression. A Cypriot transport official had said Sunday the passengers and crew may have been dead before the plane crashed.

U.S. aviation experts said they could not understand the behavior of the flight crew.

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) A man reacts as he leaves the Athens morgue Monday Aug. 15, 2005. [/font]

Jim Hall, former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said it was possible that the oxygen in the cockpit failed. He said the NTSB has been concerned about the ability of the pilots to get their masks on quickly enough.

"The accident did not have to occur," said Hall. "It has to be either a training issue or an equipment issue."

In a related development, police in northern Greece arrested a man who claimed to have received a telephone text message from a passenger. The man - identified as Nektarios-Sotirios Voutas, 32 - told Greek television stations that his cousin on board the plane sent him a cell-phone text message minutes before the crash saying: "Farewell, cousin, here we're frozen." But authorities determined he was lying, and arrested him on charges of dissemination of false information.

[font=Verdana,Sans-serif](AP) People load a coffin into a car with the remains of a person killed in Sunday's plane crash [/font]

A passenger list showed there were 20 children under the age of 16 on board, although the airline initially reported as many as 48 children were passengers.

Cypriot authorities identified the pilot as Marten Hans Jurgen, 50, from Berlin. Helios' general manager, Andrewas Drakos, said he did not know how long the pilot had worked for the airline.

A spokesman for the German Foreign Ministry, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with German practice, identified one of the pilots as a 58-year-old German but would not give his full name. It was unclear why there was a discrepancy in his age. Greek and Cypriot authorities often list surnames before given names, and Hans-Juergen would likely be the pilot's first name.

In Berlin, police were guarding the pilot's home in a quiet Berlin neighborhood near the Schoenefeld airport.

The name on the mailbox said Merten. Neighbors confirmed his first name was Hans-Juergen and said he was a pilot in his 50s, but refused to provide any other details.

The airliner's pilots had reported air conditioning system problems to Cyprus air traffic control about a half-hour after takeoff, and Greek state TV quoted Cyprus' transport minister as saying the plane had decompression problems in the past.

But a Helios representative said the plane had "no problems and was serviced just last week." Helios said the Boeing 737-300 was manufactured in 1998 and previously operated by Deutsche BA. It entered the Helios fleet in April 2004, the company said.[/font]

 

[HAL Pilot]

Read throught the FAR requirements for an ATP... just about every single person I know that holds an ATP, earned in on a type rating check ride... ATP stands for Airline Transport Pilot... think they may know something on the subject?

But many also get their ATP in a light piston twin and know nothing about how an airline, fractional or corporate flight department operates. In fact, many who have their ATP have never even flown in a multi-pilot cockpit and have never even had any crew-coordination training.

You probably know poeple that did it your way because (I believe) you went to ERAU where everyone wants to go airlines or military. Most regional pilots get hired with a commercial ticket and than earn their ATP with their type/intial Captain upgrade.

Want an ATP? Have 1500 total time, 500 cross country, 100 hours night & 75 hours instrument in any type of aircraft. Pass the written test after studying all the questions and answers from the Gleim book and go shoot 4 approaches of various types and in various aircraft configurations. Do some instrument airwork and viola! You are an ATP without ever having learned a thing about commercial operations or without ever having flown anything other than a piston single or twin.

I trained my local FAA flight surgeon for his multi ATP in exchange for a couple years worth of first class physicals and EKGs. He doesn't know squat about airlines/commercial operations, large aircraft or even turbine engines - but he is always asking.

I see ATPs all the timearound part 61 flight schools, flying clubs, etc with no airline or commercial aviation knowledge or experience. Heck, many military pilots do the quick 2 day courses at places like Shebles or ALL ATPs. They might know complex aircraft systems, crew coordination, etc. But they know nothing of airline operations.

 

[A4sForever]

HAL Pilot is absolutely correct in his appreciation of ATP's and the relative ease in obtaining them without any airline experience.

 

[A4sForever]

"Cushy" Part 121 jobs and "dues" ... let's see ... dues .... dues .... dues .... now where did I put my dues ... ???

How about this for "dues":

Enlisted reserves in high school, graduated honors, 4 year Navy academic scholarship, no rich Daddy to get it done for me, PPL while in school, graduated BA, Naval Aviation for 20 years, got shot at, got hurt, got sick, got out, got MBA, got FE certificate, got ATP @ an ATP mill, tough competition, got hired at 3 "cushy" 121 jobs, took one, flew pax, flew cargo, flew nights, flew weekends, flew holidays, flew birthdays, flew Reserves, lost "cushy" job when airline went bust, flew more Reserves, got divorced, tough competition (again), got another "cushy" 121 job, trained a lot of pilots, foreign and domestic throughout, survived in another "cushy" job for 24+ years while flying pax, freight, nights, weekends, holidays, birthdays, ..... and I now have arrived at the top of the Aviation food chain.... unless you want to be an Astronaut. And I don't ... my job pays better.

I fail to see why you choose to pick a fight on this subject. You're wrong. Get over it. ERAU and the Navy does not give one the inside track on aviation knowledge, skills, nor the ability to get a "cushy" Part 121 job. You have to "pay your dues" and earn it. Or get lucky ....

But those "dues?" I think I've paid my dues .... and I make no excuses for myself, my personal efforts, my timing, luck, or the lack of same in others. Come back and talk to me more about "cushy" jobs when you have paid your dues ..... ALOHA

 

[wink]

But they know nothing of airline operations.

Oh I don't know about that. They may not have in depth systems knowledge of, say the B737 pressurization system. But, The ATP written is just the Airline Dispatchers exam with a few more FAR and physiology questions that apply specificly to pilots. It must teach you something about airline operations. The ATP exam asks many questions about legal airline operations. That is what Part 121 is all about. The exam goes deeply into weight and balance, performance and flight planning for transport catagory aircraft. It covers the physiology of decompression, hypoxia, high altitude weather, etc. When I took it all the charts and references where for a B727. Does a civ sourced ATP know much about day to day airline operations the day after he gets his ticket, no. But I think it is fair to say he has a pretty good idea what it is like to operate a large jet aircraft in an airline environment. The guy that gets his Airline Dispatchers ticket (nearly identical test to ATP) can go out the next day and start dispacthing large jet aircraft for an airline. He won't know more then a new ATP.

 

[mules83]

Another update from the German media (CNN affiliate n.tv), citing the chief investigator and the Greek defense ministry who rely on the now released testimony of the F16 fighter pilots:

"The jet fighter pilots took a picture of the cockpit at 1118hrs, showing the co-pilot slumped over the control panel. 30 Minutes before the crash (i.e.: 1134 hrs), two people entered the cockpit of the stricken airliner, allegedly two flight attendants, the male with pilot training, the female his fiancée. The guy's name is reported as Andreas Prodromou, 25 years old, his fiancée is said to be one Haris Charalambous. The theory at this point is that they were able to survive on portable oxygen available to F/A in the cabin. The F16 fighter pilots took a picture of what was going on in the cockpit at 1140hrs.

The aircraft then left its holding pattern 23 minutes (1141hrs) before the crash, heading in the direction of ATH. Interpretation is that the F/A switched the AP off. The aircraft descended to approx. 10.000ft and then to 2.500ft (other news say 9.000ft and 7.000ft) over the sea. At that altitude, it started heading towards ATH airport and started slowly climbing again as if the F/A noticed he was too low.

The interpretation at this point is that the aircraft ran out of fuel, only a few miles out of ATH airport, and crashed at Grammatikos."

 

[highlyrandom]

If this ever happens to you, ditch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but commercial airliners float better than they glide.

 

[Fly Navy]

Not many airline pilots make very successful ditchings... let alone a Flight Attendant with minimal flight training.

 

[mules83]

There is always that 767 (gimli glider) that ran out of gas at cruising alt. and glided to a safe landing. I'll post the website that talks about it if i can find it.

Thats why we should all be glider pilots, just incase that happens

Here is a website about the incident:

http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/Technology Folder/gimli_glider.htm

 

[mules83]

I have heard that a 747 has a better glide ratio than a Cessna 172. Its the very fast speed the 747 has to travel at for best glide and therefore cover more ground than a cessna would. But of course, it might be just one of those many rumors that we see so much around here.