A feeling of disappointment...

[azguy]

I don't think you need to be a prick to be a strong and effective officer; I think that the perception among a small command that you are a prick will quickly arise if you show up trying to throw around your rank, which is what you guys were saying he should've done. As LET said, the only real solution is to qualify and then not tolerate it toward the next guy when you are more senior.

To clarify my point, we just have different views on this issue based on our experience. Demanding a certain level of respect is part of having high standards. I don't think that doing that "throwing my weight around" makes me a prick. You clearly feel guilty acting that way. Agree to disagree. It sounds like just another difference between subs/surface.

Frankly, if you are making shit happen and gettng shit done on your boat, getting great paper, then keep doing what you're doing... But your Mess should be warned to stand by if they want to wander around any other part of the military acting lke that.

 

[azguy]

Thirdly, sub guys are required to have higher asvab scores and consist of a crew that is made up with about 1/4-1/3 enlisted nuclear submariners) where many of them are actually smarter than the average officer and have either already completed a degree or are in the process of completing one.

Yeah, nukes are so "special." So are OSs, CTs, BMs, AWs, DCs, ISs, SWO JOs, helo pilots, etc...just ask them... Being an officer has very, very little to do with intelligence. It's about wanting to be at the helm, out front, in command, running shit. If those nukes wanted to do an officers job and get paid for it, they should have gone to college and gotten commissioned...yeah, easier said then done, huh?

 

[BackOrdered]

WOW. I wasn't expecting this much dialogue over the issue, though I am very grateful I am reading stories.

 

[Spekkio]

What I have always been told is the best thing to do in any situation that has to do with that type of behavior is a talk behind closed doors. Something to the effect of "You don't talk like that to me, in public or private." I can see that there is quite a lot of debate as to how it should have been handled, but would this not have been an appropriate way of dealing with it?

Yea, theoretically. Maybe in the instructional video you 'heard' it from the person has an epiphany and says, "Gosh darn it, you're right ENS niner61...I shouldn't speak to you like that in public. I'll be sure to have a lot more respect for you going forward. *hug*"

Now ask yourself if you really think that someone who thinks he doesn't need to listen to you, knows you realistically can't do anything tangible about it, and is bold enough to vocalize it to your face is going to respond like that.

Frankly, if you are making shit happen and gettng shit done on your boat, getting great paper, then keep doing what you're doing... But your Mess should be warned to stand by if they want to wander around any other part of the military acting lke that...

This was all very early in my tour. Somewhere in there a change of command happened, I and guys who showed up near me got qualified, and we collectively changed the wardroom/goat locker dynamics for the better. Sometimes it required 'forceful leadership' or whatever you want to call it, but my point from the beginning is that there is a time and a place and when you're a nub Ensign it's probably neither.

Yeah, nukes are so "special." So are OSs, CTs, BMs, AWs, DCs, ISs, SWO JOs, helo pilots, etc...just ask them... Being an officer has very, very little to do with intelligence. It's about wanting to be at the helm, out front, in command, running shit. If those nukes wanted to do an officers job and get paid for it, they should have gone to college and gotten commissioned...yeah, easier said then done, huh?

You obviously haven't spent time leading a nuke watch team. Yea, everyone thinks they're 'special' but the nukes take it to a whole other level. There's practically no rank structure back there, it's Officer, Chief and "other" -- seniority is solely based on how qualified you are. An MM2 can be standing EWS/EDPO over multiple 1st class petty officers, some of whom can be on a 2nd tour.

 

[KilroyUSN]

Yeah, nukes are so "special." So are OSs, CTs, BMs, AWs, DCs, ISs, SWO JOs, helo pilots, etc...just ask them... Being an officer has very, very little to do with intelligence. It's about wanting to be at the helm, out front, in command, running shit. If those nukes wanted to do an officers job and get paid for it, they should have gone to college and gotten commissioned...yeah, easier said then done, huh?

I never stated they wanted to do the officers job, they just view (however wrong it might be) that the biggest difference between them and an officer is a college degree, and that doesn't even apply to half of them. A good portion of them went to college, got a degree, went to a recruiter and was told that the officer spots were full and that they were a shoe-in to go from enlisted to officer while they were in Nuke school.
Granted they probably chose poorly and might "deserve" where they are at and they don't know the extra "training" an officer received during his time at an NROTC, however, what Spekkio says is completely true regarding any semblance of rank structure in the engine room of a submarine. Even the Chief demarcation has its limites when 2nd class and 1st class petty officers stand the same watches as them, eat at the table next to them, and have their hands in a machine tearing it apart and putting it back, WITH them, not NEXT to them.
The ASVAB / intelligence wasn't only regarding nuclear operators, rather the majority of all rates on submarines and was not intended to be a "we are special because we have pocket protectors and glasses with tape in the middle" comment, rather trying to give a different perspective.
As far as the "easier said than done", I don't believe you have looked at very many STA-21 selection results... as fortunate or unfortunate as it is, a large percentage of nuclear operators DO go to college and get a commission, either through STA-21 or OCS. From my 4 1/2 years on only ONE submarine with a crew of about 170, we had 7 people go from enlisted to officer, in which 5 of them were "nukes". This isn't even counting the number of "baby nukes" who get selected before they even hit the fleet.
Like everything in the Navy, perception is reality, and when you perceive a good portion of the people you go through school with getting a commission while you are on the boat, you start to believe that it is probably not very hard to do, even if it is not reality, and even if you don't recognize the other differences that come with the job.

 

[Spekkio]

A good portion of them went to college, got a degree, went to a recruiter and was told that the officer spots were full and that they were a shoe-in to go from enlisted to officer while they were in Nuke school.

My XO joked close to the end of my tour that 'the typical nuke coming in has a 4-year degree but couldn't get a job without any experience.'

In talking to those guys, many of them didn't understand the enlisted/officer split and thought you could be promoted to Ensign, or didn't understand how the process worked and the enlisted recruiter wasn't about to explain it to them beyond "oh yea, you can just apply for STA-21 out of nuke school. Lots of nukes get into that! It's a sure shot if you're smart!" Let alone the applicant already has a degree and isn't eligible. Yea, they should've used better google-fu, but I remember applying for OCS and the information for an OR was not readily available on the Navy's website (it referred me to an enlisted recruiting station where the guy tried to get me to enlist claiming I needed above a 3.5 gpa to go officer...his jaw dropped when I said I had a 3.8, then he proceeded to joke with his buddy about my career goals while faxing my paperwork to the OR).

I think where they go astray is that some of the smart ones think the fact that they know everything about their gear (like they are supposed to) makes them smarter than the officers or that they can do the job without realizing that their entire training pipeline is about being an expert at that small piece of the pie, and an officer's training is much broader in scope than that.

 

[LET73]

I think where they go astray is that some of the smart ones think the fact that they know everything about their gear (like they are supposed to) makes them smarter than the officers or that they can do the job without realizing that their entire training pipeline is about being an expert at that small piece of the pie, and an officer's training is much broader in scope than that.

Yes, and this is not just an issue with nukes. These guys know their equipment or their problem set inside and out. It's important to them, because it's what they do and it's what they've been trained on. When they don't see the bigger picture, it's easy for them to wonder why the ensign gets to be in charge when he doesn't know that problem set as well, or isn't an expert on that piece of gear. I've seen that a lot with the junior guys, but good leadership, plus some perspective, tends to cure that problem.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

NNPS/NPTU isn't what it used to be, at least according to the senior/master chiefs I've spoken to. The bar for passing is 62.5%. The passing rate is now well over 90% and they want 100%, pair that with 'drafts' of candidates who ordinarilly wouldn't have gotten into the program.

I have no way to compare what it used to be to what it is now. However, the passing rate when I went through power school in '93 and prototype in '94 was 2.5 (62.5%)...as you mentioned, 2.5 to stay alive. Those senior/master chiefs you referenced were guys I went to school with. Now, if NNPS/NPTU has a lower threshold to earn the minimum now, that's a different story. However, that would be interesting given the amount of influence that NR has on the school house. Did they go to multiple choice tests or something?

But if you think that is good training that adequately prepares a guy for his job, I cringe to think of what 'bad' training is. I don't know what SWOs get, if it's less than that then that really sucks.

It is significantly less, especially these days. I became a SWO in '99 and actually got to go through the 6 months of Divo school (SWOSDOC). A few years later, they stopped doing that altogether and started sending guys right to the fleet. And yet, somehow, they don't have the same issues with respect that you have alluded to as a submariner. As Kilroy mentioned above, it definitely sounds like being a submariner is hands down worse than being a SWO.

 

[BigRed389]

It is significantly less, especially these days. I became a SWO in '99 and actually got to go through the 6 months of Divo school (SWOSDOC). A few years later, they stopped doing that altogether and started sending guys right to the fleet. And yet, somehow, they don't have the same issues with respect that you have alluded to as a submariner. As Kilroy mentioned above, it definitely sounds like being a submariner is hands down worse than being a SWO.

I was one of the last guys that got to do the phenomenally cost effective, "Here's a set of butter bars, and here's orders to the Fleet and they'll give you a box of CDs when you get there" training model that no doubt earned somebody an EOT MSM.

I don't know that our ship command culture was as bad as what Spekkio described, but stuff like that happened. Not often, but it happened.
Not just to Ensigns, but to LT DH's as well. Like a very explosive OSC going ballistic in CIC at a new LT OPS and telling him he's being a "fucking idiot" with a LCDR(sel) CSO sitting TAO and with no professional repercussions (stayed Dept LCPO, EPs all the way, made OSCS same tour). To be fair, Ops WAS being an idiot (same guy that later asked me on the bridge to drive "between" the waves during heavy seas)...but that still could've gone better.
Similar issues with some CWOs as well ranging from mere customs & courtesies "Fuck that, I don't salute Ensigns/JGs" variety to more serious professional interaction issues.
I'd like to think this was an isolated case of one command, but I heard enough similar stories from Norfolk that I know it wasn't.

 

[Spekkio]

Those senior/master chiefs you referenced were guys I went to school with. Now, if NNPS/NPTU has a lower threshold to earn the minimum now, that's a different story. However, that would be interesting given the amount of influence that NR has on the school house. Did they go to multiple choice tests or something?

It could be a 'I walked up hill both ways to school' phenomena, but those who are privy to the statistics state that the passing rate is significantly higher than it used to be in the 80s and early 90s. NR still works for the Navy and you can't send a boat/ship to sea without nukes to operate the plant. Personally, I never felt like I was remotely in danger of failing out of the pipeline. The mentality at prototype is the staff works to push the struggling students through and their Chief/Eng will fix them in the fleet, but even the smart guys learn bad habits that have to be untrained/retrained once in the fleet. Civilian power companies have also taken notice of the lower quality of Navy nukes over the years.

With the type I/type II upgrades to the S6G plants along with S8G and S9G plants in service, prototypes (3 of which are analog S5W) offer very little practical experience for the nukes attending it. It's just one of those things that's always been there, and it 'works' from the perspective that there hasn't been a reactor accident, so it's not going to change. But it is fun sending new guys out to find components that don't exist anymore in their checkouts to see if they actually opened the RPM to study the chapter.

And yet, somehow, they don't have the same issues with respect that you have alluded to as a submariner.

The "I'm not listening to you because you don't have fish" might be unique to submarines, but it's hard for me to believe that Ensigns being treated somewhere between not being taken seriously to overtly disrespected is unique to the sub community. We've all heard the urban legend of the Ensign who reminds a Master Chief he has to salute, to which the Master Chief hands him a quarter and tells the Ensign to call his mother and tell her that he met a real Sailor today. Before I joined the Navy, there was a pilot who posted a sea story on this board where an aviator showed up to his shop, tried to get the Chief to change something, Chief said no, aviator told the Chief he was 12-0 in boxing or something, and the Chief said keep talking and you'll be 12-1.

 

[Flash]

Reason #857 I am glad I went Naval Aviation - This thread.

 

[azguy]

Reason #857 I am glad I went Naval Aviation - This thread.

Interesting...why? Instead of ENS, they show up as a LT with zero leadership and operational experience, whereas their counterparts have already been around the world and lead Sailors in the fleet for years...

 

[The Chief]

..... We've all heard the urban legend of the Ensign who reminds a Master Chief he has to salute, to which the Master Chief hands him a quarter and tells the Ensign to call his mother and tell her that he met a real Sailor today. .....

I figured that was going to come back someday and bite me. But to that I say:

If some dick head Ensign had nothing better to do than brace a Master Chief for failure to salute I would venture that Ensign should have remained in the Boy Scouts. If ever I failed to salute an officer, there was some damn good reason I did not salute.

The thread is replete with failure of leadership. Obviously the Navy is in far worse shape than when I left it. If the Chief’s mess has a problem, when I was part of the Navy the Wardroom fixed it, and yes there were times it was needed. The Wardroom did not go around begging Chiefs for a quarter to call their mother to complain that they were dissed by a mean ole Chief.

Lastly, your mother should have told you that you cannot demand respect, you must command respect. Being a cry baby does not cut it, ever.

 

[Gatordev]

...To be fair, Ops WAS being an idiot...but that still could've gone better.

Similar issues with some CWOs as well ranging from mere customs & courtesies "Fuck that, I don't salute Ensigns/JGs" variety to more serious professional interaction issues.
I'd like to think this was an isolated case of one command, but I heard enough similar stories from Norfolk that I know it wasn't.

I've seen similar, but here's some thoughts...

I wouldn't equate a qualified E-7 telling a (basically) qualified O-3 that he's wrong is the same thing. I don't agree with the OSC's technique or demeanor, but the O-3 should be at least a little more educated.

I also don't equate a CWO and O-1 as the same thing as an E-7 and an O-1. The CWO is part of the wardroom, and while technically junior, he isn't his subordinate. Again, I don't agree with the technique, but not everyone poops sunshine, all the time.

In Spekkio's example, you have a someone who has one of his primary jobs as developing a junior officer who ALSO happens to work for him (assuming the DivO position). That's where the failure happens for me.

 

[Gatordev]

Interesting...why? Instead of ENS, they show up as a LT with zero leadership and operational experience, whereas their counterparts have already been around the world and lead Sailors in the fleet for years...

Their counterparts haven't been around the world and have ton of leadership, because everyone else shows up at the same point (usually as a Jaygee). But again, rank isn't the issue, it's someone who doesn't really know anything showing up and gets mentored, and not belittled, by the guys that do know something.