Navy Parachutist Wings? They're 'gold".
Like I think you've figured out…bring 'em all and you'll figure it out as you go along. Some of the stuff might be fun at some point in time…whether or not authorized…figure it out!
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AF enlisted aircrew wings and maintenance badge for OCS
- Thread starter rafelos1337
- Start date
Well technically, the aviator wings are warfare devices too but....
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Not sure what you're getting at. Aviators, SWOs, SEALs, and Sub dudes all have a PQS/syllabus. AWs didn't used to have a PQS, just a training syllabus, just like pilots. Once AW wings were approved as warfare devices, the ruling was that there needed to be a PQS for them. Apparently the training pipeline they already went through isn't good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if that was imposed by a Surface/Sub khaki contigent, since they really only speak PQS.
Aviators are the only ones that get a "warfare pin" before they get to the fleet. Really not sure how one can be warfare qualified without any operational fleet experience in whatever platform they employ, be it a DDG, SSBN, P-3....but I don't make the rules. Basically, it would be like giving nukes a SWO pin or dolphins after they finished prototype training. As for SWO training or lack thereof....yeah, let's not go there. Personally I think the whole concept of a warfare device, regardless of community, is a bit silly.
When I was an A-4 RAG IP, our RPs were considered "warfare qualified" upon successful completion of the syllabus. Early in the Vietnam air war ('64-'66), the RAG was getting newly commissioned NAVCADs, running them through the 9-month syllabus, and sending them directly to deployed VA Squadrons 'on the line', only halfway through their 'Ensignship'. I later flew many strikes with these fuzzy-cheeked Kids on my wing. They were fully warfare qual'd D/N, performed admirably around the boat, courageous under fire, and were true Air Warriors.
In effect, each type/community FRS/RAG Program is a NA/NFO PQS, no matter what it's called.
BsB
Counterpoint, SEALs get a warfare pin prior to showing up at an operational unit.
I get what you're saying though Steve. For argument's sake, it would make more sense for pilots to get winged at the end of FRS when they are "tactically" trained. But it's really a moot point whether they get winged at the end of API, primary, or advanced because they have an actual training pipeline that doesn't allow them to show up in the fleet until they have attained a basic level of tactical competency.
SWO is truly jacked up in this regard. For all intents and purposes, the 12-18 months we spend getting a SWO pin is our equivalent to flight school/FRS. Where the SWO pin, like a set of wings on a FRS grad, signifies a "basic" level of warfare training.
Calling Stearmann.... That doesn't sound right.
My understanding was that SQT was within their SEAL Team, which is the operational unit. But maybe that's changed. After SQT, and a "robust" PQS, then they get their pin...again, from the Teams.
FRS in no way equates to tactically trained, only NATOPS qualified (I know it gives you level 1, but come on!).
The first tour for SWOs is kind of equivalent to flight school. The path to OOD covers a lot of the shipboard equivalents as the path to PIC, so that qual is similar to flight school and the FRS. time as the conning officer is probably close to flight school while JOOD is similar to the RAG/2p. The SWO syllabus is a weird animal with no real equivalency in the aviation world. From what I saw of the syllabus, a lot of it seems to be a harassment package that exists to make the pin worthwhile.
Are we measuring dicks…or bra sizes? The qual/designation programs are what they are…
Good discussion, tho…although I disagree with this:
In my time, replacement aircrew were trained in the FRS (some assessed as better than others, to be sure…we called them "Category ALFAs") to a level that would enable them to be shipped out immediately as "combat replacement aircrew":
"Welcome aboard…here's your stateroom...you're on the morning strike." Probably not QUITE that dramatic…but you get the idea. Immediately employable…once they'd paid their Mess Bill...
Good discussion, tho…although I disagree with this:
In my time, replacement aircrew were trained in the FRS (some assessed as better than others, to be sure…we called them "Category ALFAs") to a level that would enable them to be shipped out immediately as "combat replacement aircrew":
"Welcome aboard…here's your stateroom...you're on the morning strike." Probably not QUITE that dramatic…but you get the idea. Immediately employable…once they'd paid their Mess Bill...
I believe top performers are still sent out to meet their squadrons at sea/FDNF. But, and I'll caveat this by saying I haven't read any communities training instruction in awhile, you still show up as a Level I, so I don't know how useful that individual could be. In general, I thought the goal was to be deployed as a Level II. In HSC you hadn't be Level II to fly combat missions. I'm not sure if that's the same in other communities, but I'd wager a guess that the days of a nugget's first mission being a combat one are behind us.In my time, replacement aircrew were trained in the FRS (some assessed as better than others, to be sure…we called them "Category ALFAs") to a level that would enable them to be shipped out immediately as "combat replacement aircrew":
"Welcome aboard…here's your stateroom...you're on the morning strike." Probably not QUITE that dramatic…but you get the idea. Immediately employable…once they'd paid their Mess Bill...
Gotcha, yeah I don't have a great understanding of the aviation training pipeline, but I think we generally agree.
To Steve's point, an ENS/JG with wings but still in the TRACOM isn't really "warfare qualified." But my follow on point is- who cares? No one expects shit from a pilot in the TRACOM, or a non-qual SWO ENS.
Trying to parallel how you fight a ship and an aircraft is disengenious, you just don't fight the two the same.
To be fair, a first tour SWO with a pin doesn't provide the ship anything additional than an non-pin OOD. sure, they've proven that they understand some of the building blocks of how ships are utilized in a broad sense, but they don't get to fight the ship until TAO.