Back to the islands and the good life.
Big congrats...and may you never be furloughed again!
Big congrats...and may you never be furloughed again!
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After 4 Years, 11 Months, 3 Weeks and 3 Days
- Thread starter HAL Pilot
- Start date
want me to do it for you? I've been taking monthly trips to corpus
It happens ...
A4sForever = 3 airlines, 2 furloughs, 2 bankruptcies, 1 strike, 1 walkin' the picket line w/the resultant blisters. Seriously ....
Welcome to the glamorous world of the airlines, boys ...
It happens ...
A4sForever = 3 airlines, 2 furloughs, 2 bankruptcies, 1 strike, 1 walkin' the picket line w/the resultant blisters. Seriously ....
Welcome to the glamorous world of the airlines, boys ...
All you needed was a merger and to be on the short end of the seniority list merger, and you'd have all the checks in the box.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
It happens ...
A4sForever = 3 airlines, 2 furloughs, 2 bankruptcies, 1 strike, 1 walkin' the picket line w/the resultant blisters. Seriously ....
Welcome to the glamorous world of the airlines, boys ...
@A4s: Sir, did you find it difficult to transition to life in a union? I mean, were you a "pro-union" guy before becoming an airline pilot? Or did you just learn to see their utility once you saw it from the inside?
I'm not trying to start an argument on this, it just seems like most military guys that I know are fairly conservative leaning, and most conservative leaning folks are, at best, lukewarm on unions politically (a lot of generalizations here). Is there any "adjustment period" that people go through personally on the subject?
The only business training I've had (except for nearly two decades worth of leading Marines) is my MBA stuff. Needless to say, while they're teaching us to think from a management perspective it's hard to think like a member of a union.
Your image of getting blisters on a picket line just made me wonder if it ever occurred to you prior to joining the airlines that you would ever end up on strike, etc. I'm just having a hard time reconciling my business thoughts with the (hopeful) future of being a member of a union.
I'm not out here trying to bash the unions, but I realize that this can be a very sensitive subject on aviation forums. No offense was intended, if I have to say it.:icon_mi_1
Good Question.
Ohhhh ... I forgot about that ... had one ... lost 1400 numbers.
Don't ANYONE EVER ...
... say that A4's hasn't seen the airline wars and has the medals (i.e., scars) to prove it ....
Good questions ... and ones that will impact ALL of you and your little worlds should you go airlines ...
1. Semi-difficult ... I was basically a bystander and didn't get down and "dirty" in the union -- I joined to fly, not pontificate ... and I pissed off too many ALPA "leadership" guys (I know, I know ...) and was not "political" enough to be one of the boys and marched to the beat of my own drum in most cases. I COULD have kissed multiple asses ... I just chose not to play the "game". The only problem for the ALPA "club" was ... I had a lot of credibility with the line pilots ... so my opinion(s) and union participation was solicited when it suited the union's purpose. And the purpose of those in power ...
... my ass was kissed on occasion, but unfortunately, I never returned the favor. 2. No. My Dad hated unions ... he was military and upper management. I probably subscribed to his point of view. Then I went into the airlines and had to join a union.
We never discussed it. :icon_wink3. Yes, big time. Kinda tied to #1 above .... the biggest "utility" ALPA provides the line pilot is strength in numbers and protection (to a degree) from predatory managements who hate your pilot guts. It's a shame, but that's what I experienced on repeated occasions.
Unless something changes in labor/management relations ----
shall we hold our breath (?) ---- the union will be a necessary part of your airline life (unfortunately). I guess that's why my Dad's son walked the picket line.
Missed this on the first run-through .....
NEVER -- not in 10,000 years -- would I have imagined myself walking a picket line ...
Blister prevention??? My only suggestion while walkin' the line would be to wear some sturdy-soled lace-up oxfords with your uniform .... don't wear your Weejuns ...
Harrier Dude - not addressed to me but here's my 2 cents.
Until Hawaiian, I was never pro-union. In fact, I probably could have been classified as anti-union.
Being at an airline through bankruptcy and furlough as shown me exactly how important a good union is for an airline pilot. ALPA was the only thing that kept management from completely butt raping us and shredding the pilot pay & work rules during the bankruptcy. They are also the only reason pilots get furloughed with recalled rights versus being fired with no recall rights.
Like A4s, I will never be "one of the boys" in the union and I will never get voted into any kind of union position. I'm also not as militant as a lot of the pilots. But the union is needed and there is strength in numbers. I'll voice my opinion in the union meetings but I'll parrot the union party line to management even if I do not agree with it 100%.
Management is not your friend and they don't care about you. They want you to fly to FAR limitations, be on call 24/7/365 and get paid minimum wage with no benefits. The union is the only thing that prevents that.
On the flip side, there is also many things wrong within the union. The key thing is that what is good for the majority frequently gets overshadowed by what is good for those with the most seniority. This feeling of entitlement is my biggest complaint. But the good far outweighs the bad and I'd rather live with this than suffer the consequences.
Until Hawaiian, I was never pro-union. In fact, I probably could have been classified as anti-union.
Being at an airline through bankruptcy and furlough as shown me exactly how important a good union is for an airline pilot. ALPA was the only thing that kept management from completely butt raping us and shredding the pilot pay & work rules during the bankruptcy. They are also the only reason pilots get furloughed with recalled rights versus being fired with no recall rights.
Like A4s, I will never be "one of the boys" in the union and I will never get voted into any kind of union position. I'm also not as militant as a lot of the pilots. But the union is needed and there is strength in numbers. I'll voice my opinion in the union meetings but I'll parrot the union party line to management even if I do not agree with it 100%.
Management is not your friend and they don't care about you. They want you to fly to FAR limitations, be on call 24/7/365 and get paid minimum wage with no benefits. The union is the only thing that prevents that.
On the flip side, there is also many things wrong within the union. The key thing is that what is good for the majority frequently gets overshadowed by what is good for those with the most seniority. This feeling of entitlement is my biggest complaint. But the good far outweighs the bad and I'd rather live with this than suffer the consequences.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
A4s and HAL: Thanks for the perspectives. That's kind of what I expected. I've noticed from this and other forums that this tends to be kind of a touchy subject. I'm hoping to work for the airlines, but much like you two (and not surprisingly) I have no interest in work-related politics or other such angst. I want to fly and have a good quality of life. That's it.
I've heard from some of my buddies who are with the airlines that there are those who are fervently pro-union, almost to the point of being irrational. Kind of like the people who will vote for Hitler if he is pro-choice/life/gay/guns etc. The single issue people. I was just wondering if that is prevalant or just much-ado about nothing. I'd imagine it also varies quite a bit from carrier to carrier.
During my MBA program I saw, mainly through case studies, how some unions have practically choked their employers out of business. Sometimes it seems like extortion and these unions seemed to lack a certain amount of self-preservation in that they were "biting the hand that feeds them", or more appropriately, eliminating their own source of employment by forcing them out of competition.
I had a particularly bad opinion of when unions get involved with government employees (like NADEP, my most frequent target for well justified abuse). That unholy alliance cripples the entities ability to adapt or correct itself from within. This leads to the often heard stories, many verified, of workers being promoted rather than fired for poor performance after spectacular blunders or events of unquestionable incompetance.
Also, I wondered what kind of "alliance" that airline pilot unions have with the other airline unions (flight attendants, mechanics, baggage handlers, etc). Are they mutually supportive? If so, just out of necessity or because you honestly believe in their cause as well as your own?
I believe that people should be paid what their talents deserve. I also generally believe that the free market is the best mechanism for that determination. I want pilots and mechanics to get paid a lot. Why? Because I want the best, most competant and skilled professional to fly and fix any aircraft that I ride in. The flight attendant? Eh.....not so much.
Basically, I know that at the moment, I have (at best) half of the big picture when it comes to how airlines work. I understand the management theories and economic principles about running a business, but aside from my experience in the service, it's pretty much book knowledge.
Thanks again for the perspectives. I'd like to hear if you think/used to think the same things when you were at my stage of the process, and what, if anything changed those opinions.
I've heard from some of my buddies who are with the airlines that there are those who are fervently pro-union, almost to the point of being irrational. Kind of like the people who will vote for Hitler if he is pro-choice/life/gay/guns etc. The single issue people. I was just wondering if that is prevalant or just much-ado about nothing. I'd imagine it also varies quite a bit from carrier to carrier.
During my MBA program I saw, mainly through case studies, how some unions have practically choked their employers out of business. Sometimes it seems like extortion and these unions seemed to lack a certain amount of self-preservation in that they were "biting the hand that feeds them", or more appropriately, eliminating their own source of employment by forcing them out of competition.
I had a particularly bad opinion of when unions get involved with government employees (like NADEP, my most frequent target for well justified abuse). That unholy alliance cripples the entities ability to adapt or correct itself from within. This leads to the often heard stories, many verified, of workers being promoted rather than fired for poor performance after spectacular blunders or events of unquestionable incompetance.
Also, I wondered what kind of "alliance" that airline pilot unions have with the other airline unions (flight attendants, mechanics, baggage handlers, etc). Are they mutually supportive? If so, just out of necessity or because you honestly believe in their cause as well as your own?
I believe that people should be paid what their talents deserve. I also generally believe that the free market is the best mechanism for that determination. I want pilots and mechanics to get paid a lot. Why? Because I want the best, most competant and skilled professional to fly and fix any aircraft that I ride in. The flight attendant? Eh.....not so much.
Basically, I know that at the moment, I have (at best) half of the big picture when it comes to how airlines work. I understand the management theories and economic principles about running a business, but aside from my experience in the service, it's pretty much book knowledge.
Thanks again for the perspectives. I'd like to hear if you think/used to think the same things when you were at my stage of the process, and what, if anything changed those opinions.
HD,
There are two books that are must reads on the subject of Unions and Airline Mgmt. Flying the Line, Vol 1 and 2.
Eastern Airlines is a great case study for some of the questions that you bring up.
There are two books that are must reads on the subject of Unions and Airline Mgmt. Flying the Line, Vol 1 and 2.
Eastern Airlines is a great case study for some of the questions that you bring up.
Like most military guys, the concept of a pilot union was/is foreign to me.
This is because I've been brought up in an organization that cares about me and wants to protect me as a pilot. When I screw up and the FAA wants to nail me, the AF protects me to the max extent that it can.
What was enlightening for me was to talk to reservists who flew for my previous squadron and explained that basic truth about military flying is NOT true for airline flying. That the leadership and management would love to just hang you out to dry if you screw up, they'd love to pay you nothing and work you to death. That the management doesn't give two sh*ts about you as a pilot.
So, that was when the pilot union lightbulb went on for me.
As a capitalist, the whole "labor union" concept goes against my personal philosophy...but I understand the necessity of what they do for pilots, and support it in a pragmatic way.
This is because I've been brought up in an organization that cares about me and wants to protect me as a pilot. When I screw up and the FAA wants to nail me, the AF protects me to the max extent that it can.
What was enlightening for me was to talk to reservists who flew for my previous squadron and explained that basic truth about military flying is NOT true for airline flying. That the leadership and management would love to just hang you out to dry if you screw up, they'd love to pay you nothing and work you to death. That the management doesn't give two sh*ts about you as a pilot.
So, that was when the pilot union lightbulb went on for me.
As a capitalist, the whole "labor union" concept goes against my personal philosophy...but I understand the necessity of what they do for pilots, and support it in a pragmatic way.
