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After 4 Years, 11 Months, 3 Weeks and 3 Days

Harrier Dude

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
HackerF15E said:
Like most military guys, the concept of a pilot union was/is foreign to me.

This is because I've been brought up in an organization that cares about me and wants to protect me as a pilot. When I screw up and the FAA wants to nail me, the AF protects me to the max extent that it can.

What was enlightening for me was to talk to reservists who flew for my previous squadron and explained that basic truth about military flying is NOT true for airline flying. That the leadership and management would love to just hang you out to dry if you screw up, they'd love to pay you nothing and work you to death. That the management doesn't give two sh*ts about you as a pilot.

So, that was when the pilot union lightbulb went on for me.

As a capitalist, the whole "labor union" concept goes against my personal philosophy...but I understand the necessity of what they do for pilots, and support it in a pragmatic way.
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I keep hearing this view of management from the pilots. There must be truth to it, or it wouldn't be so prevalant. Even if it's just pilots perception, that is reality in itself when it comes to personnel relations.

It just seems like a really shitty way to run a business (having your people believe that "management doesn't give two sh*ts about you as a employee[sic]"). People (and their talents) are the greatest asset that a business has.

As military leaders, we are taught that after accomplishing the mission, our people come first. Most importantly before our own advancement. Why don't any of these airlines run a little more like that? FedEx is run by former military, but it has a union (and they must feel like they need one...Boom Boom?). Southwest has a reputation as the most people friendly airline, but they are actually the most unionized. The do seem to have the best union-management relations, or so I've heard (Frumby?).

I'm going to read those two books that were suggested and see if I understand this better.

HAL, sorry for derailing your thread. Please split as necessary.
 
HackerF15E

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
Harrier Dude said:
As military leaders, we are taught that after accomplishing the mission, our people come first. Most importantly before our own advancement. Why don't any of these airlines run a little more like that? FedEx is run by former military, but it has a union (and they must feel like they need one...Boom Boom?). Southwest has a reputation as the most people friendly airline, but they are actually the most unionized. The do seem to have the best union-management relations, or so I've heard (Frumby?).
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Bethune seemed to do pretty well at turing Continental around, but there were obviously still labor issues.

This is the one topic I think is of most interest to military guys learning about how the airline biz works. Flying The Line is certainly enlightening, but it still doesn't completely register to whose of us brought up in an organization that cares.
 
FrankTheTank

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
FedEx is run by former military, but it has a union (and they must feel like they need one...Boom Boom?).
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A corporation's job is to make money and please the stockholders.. The Union is there to help keep our QOL and $$$ in check with the Company's goal... How many times has the CO had you break SOP or push 3710? What do you do except say 'yes sir'.. Now if the Navy/USMC tried to get you to do that on a regular basis all in the name of a dollar? What do you do?
 
Single Seat

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
The one place I've consistently heard does NOT have the Pilot/Mgmt attitude of hate and discontent is Southwest. A lot to be said for happy employees. I can't say the same for what friends have said about other locations.
 
Harrier Dude

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Boom Boom said:
A corporation's job is to make money and please the stockholders..
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Got it.

The Union is there to help keep our QOL and $$$ in check with the Company's goal...
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I understand that. I'm just trying to learn about the enviromment. Part of a company's ability to make money rests in the human capitol of their employees. Keeping them happy and hard working is in the best interest of the company. I'm just wondering if the companies fail to realize that, or if there is something else going on. At the same time, workers know that their company needs to make money or they won't have a job anymore.

Maybe I'm just naive, but it seems like if the management/worker relationship was good, then both parties would benefit and the union wouldn't be necessary. I'm not trying to bash the unions here. I'm trying to understand their necessity and culture so that if I'm ever in one, I won't be caught in a Catch 22 of values. It's pretty foreign to me at this point in my life.

I've seen and heard a lot of "horror stories" about management/union relationships in the airline industry. Particularly the allegations from one side (They're trying to screw us over) versus the other (They're driving us out of business). Right now I'm trying to understand the origins of these debates (chicken and the egg) as well as separating myth and urban legend from facts about life in the airlines.

I'm going to read the suggested books, so maybe that will help me answer the questions that I have.

How many times has the CO had you break SOP or push 3710? What do you do except say 'yes sir'.. Now if the Navy/USMC tried to get you to do that on a regular basis all in the name of a dollar? What do you do?
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Honestly? Never. In fact, I've most often seen it the other way around. The closest I've seen was the HMM trying to fly us on the extreme end of currency. Even then, though, we were still within the letter (if not spirit) of the regulations.

I get your point. Airline employees feel that they need representation to keep them from the excesses of management. I'm trying to figure out why that is.

To all reading this: I realize that this may be a "hot button" or emotional issue to you. I'm not trying to insult your unions, employers, or you personally. I'm just trying to figure out how the system works and why it is the way it is.:)
 
FrankTheTank

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Honestly? Never.
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Come on... That meeting/board that absolutely must happen regardless of 'Crew Rest'?

we were still within the letter (if not spirit) of the regulations.
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Here is the problem... The company works based on the Legalities of the Regulation.. They don't care how safe or how hard it is on YOU, the employee.. It is about cheaper and more effecient.. The military has been doing more with less for years.. With no ability for the employee's to object.. Unity is the only way to stand up against the abuse of manpower.. I know when the CO wanted up jets he worked the crap out of our maintainers (ruined a couple of marriages, I'm sure, caused some fatique related injuries-damage to property, etc). Unions are not perfect but it is the best system that exists right now to have some representation (ie buffer) with the higher ups that care only about the bottom line.
 
ea6bflyr

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
HAL, congrats...still looking for my free upgrade in March when I come out to Hawaii with my wife and kids......ha ha.....jk, enjoy the flying!!

-ea6bflyr ;)
 
HAL Pilot

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Single Seat said:
The one place I've consistently heard does NOT have the Pilot/Mgmt attitude of hate and discontent is Southwest. A lot to be said for happy employees. I can't say the same for what friends have said about other locations.
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SWA is losing their some of their competitive edge. As the dollars get tighter and the profits decrease, we'll see what their management's true colors are. But so far, I'd agree with you they probably have the best relationship but maybe not as rosey as some think.

Of course this just the grape vine speaking. There is at least one pilot on here in a much better position to speak to that.
Steve Wilkins said:
Been there done that...got the t-shirt. Never again I hope. :eek:
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Amen to that...f'ing little bastards.....
 
M

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I'll go fly for SWA if they ditch the SkyHags/SkyFags and get the hot hooters girls in hot pants back.. (I don't remember the 70s, but I saw pictures)
 
E

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
HAL Pilot said:
Amen to that...f'ing little bastards.....
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CONGRATS HAL!

And just to stay on topic.

Our favorite substitute teacher in elementary school played us songs on his guitar instead of teaching, and then he would tell us stories about his dog, baseball collection, and maintaining F-4s and A-7s on Yankee Station.

Then we would all go outside for PE, and he'd yell without fail, and much to our delight, "Kickball!! Boys against girls!"

Best part was, he looked EXACLTY like Al Bundy, a fact he hated to be reminded of.
 
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