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AH-1s and FACs

MaxAvidy

Newb like woah
I've been reading a lot that if you want hours in the cockpit you should go helo. What I'd like to do is fly cobras. I want to be closer to the action and the men on the ground. Also, if by some miracle I did get an AH-1 assignment I've heard of possibilities for temporary forward air controller duty, which interests me a lot. I'm looking for what you guys have to say about Cobra hours and the possibility of FAC. What would be the best way to get what I want?

Thanks
 

MaxAvidy

Newb like woah
Ok, well I found this, not sure how accurate it is.

The United States Marine Corps is the only United States service to refer to its JTACs as FACs. The USMC requires that:

-FACs must be winged aviators with at least 2 years operational flying experience.
-FACs must have attended and graduated from the Expeditionary Warfare Training Group (EWTG) Tactical Air Control Party (TACP) course.
-At the completion of the TACP course Aviators are granted the 7502 FAC MOS and are considered certified and qualified JTACs.

Just so I have this clear. If I get this duty I'm in the mud calling airstrikes, right?
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
MaxAvidy said:
Ok, well I found this, not sure how accurate it is.

The United States Marine Corps is the only United States service to refer to its JTACs as FACs. The USMC requires that:

-FACs must be winged aviators with at least 2 years operational flying experience.
-FACs must have attended and graduated from the Expeditionary Warfare Training Group (EWTG) Tactical Air Control Party (TACP) course.
-At the completion of the TACP course Aviators are granted the 7502 FAC MOS and are considered certified and qualified JTACs.

Just so I have this clear. If I get this duty I'm in the mud calling airstrikes, right?

FACs have been around for a long time. During Viet Nam, some fixed wing Marine Aviators did a FAC rotation before getting to fly CAS sorties. JTAC is the relatively new J designation and EWTG is one location that you can get the qual. USAF has a large contingent of ETACs that comprise their TACP support for big Green side of house. They have been doing a lot of support for Special Operations as well, which had been domain of their Special Tactics Squadrons that have CCT/PJ qualled individuals. Both Navy and Marine Corps use FAC (A) aircrews that get similar training. Cobra pilots pride themselves as best at the FAC (A) game and that is what you should strive for before trying to get a ground FAC billet. F/A-18D aircrews also fly FAC (A) missions as do/did the F-14 Tomcat and now the F/A-18F Super Hornet. There is a strong tie between the guys in the air coordinating the Close Air Support (CAS) and the guys on ground receiving it. ROVER III is latest bit of technology to shorten and enhance the kill chain. MAWTS-1 has led the way in refining the TTPs involved and NSAWC now has a JTAC school (alongside Topgun) run by SEALs that uses the visiting Navy Air Wings to provide airborne visual aids for their JTAC training.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
LOL, you need to connect the dots to get to flight school and then select for helos first and then see if you can get Cobras when you finish up. If you read other threads related to selection, your performance plays a significant part and then the needs of the service (ie availability of Cobra slot when you select weighed against your performance and what the folks behind the curtain decide your fate will be). Set your goal and go for it, but best bet is to knock yourself out at every opportunity.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
There are several Marine FACs on the board but, no surprise, are currently deployed, so it may be a while until they get a chance to respond to your post. Look around for posts from phrogpilot73 and skidkid. Also, you may become a FAC despite not being a Cobra guy. There's a bunch of other helo dudes I work with who have done the FAC gig and none of them are Cobra pilots.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
OK, here's the deal with getting to be a FAC and FAC(A). All the stuff above is good gouge. Every Marine Batallion rates an Air Officer, 2 FACs, and 2 JTACs.

Air Officer- The senior 7502 FAC that serves as the aviation advisor to the ground commander. He mainly works in the FSCC (fire support coordination center) coordinating the calls for air with the grunts. He is commanders go-to guy for ALL air stuff.

FAC- A pilot who controls airstrikes and coordinates other air evolutions from a forward area. He can be ANY kind of pilot, or NFO. Personally, I think that FAC(A) types do the best job as FACs, but there are many competant FACs from every community. The current MAWTS-1 Air Officer department head is a CH-46 guy and a hell of a good FAC.

JTAC- This is a joint term for a person who controls airstrikes in a CAS envrionment. As far as the USMC goes, all Air Officers are FACS. All FACs are JTACs. But not all JTACs are FACs. A JTAC (in our context) is simply a combat arms officer or SNCO that has been trained to perform the terminal control function of CAS.

Every infantry unit (BN and higher) has an Air Officer. They advise their commanders and work air issues up and down the "air chain of command" so to speak. The BN Air Officer (typically a senior Captain) will talk to the Regimental Air Officer (typically a Major) with regards to requests for air or issues that he needs help with. The Regimental Air Officer will talk about these same issues with the Division Air Officer (typically a Colonel) or one of his Assistant Air Officers (typically Majors). The higher up the totem pole you go, the less "crawing around in the mud calling airstrikes" that you do and the more "big picture" planning is involved.

All of these (including MEU Air Officer/Assistant Air Officer, etc.) are sometimes referred to informally as "FAC tours" even though many of them are not really perfoming FAC duties. They last 12-18 months normally.

JTACs, ideally, are more constant. An 0302 1stLt can become a JTAC (in addition to being a platoon commander, etc) and do this his whole career, probably up until he makes Major, as long as he can stay current. I won't go into the whole currency debacle, but essentially if you don't call an airstrike for 2 years, you lose your qual and have to start all over.

The entire CAS system has changed greatly in the last several years. It is still evolving to adapt to the joint environment and to accomadate new technology such as ROVER III, STRIKELINK, PSSOF, and a host of other gucci items.

IMHO, the air force has hijacked the system and layered it with beauracracy and sea lawyer horse-sh!t. I won't go into specifics, mainly because it would take longer to explain that I have available blood pressure to raise, but suffice it to say that the air force views CAS as a way that the grunts can help the air force win the war. That is NOT the way the USMC views it. We are here to provide fires (just like arty, mortars, or anything else) in support of the ground scheme of maneuver. We work for them.

More directly to your situation, you should pick whatever airframe you think will mnake you happy. The only way to garuntee that is to always be number 1. Rest assured that you'll like whatever you wind up with eventually. My rationale was simple. If I get helos I have a roughly 10% random chance of getting Cobras or Hueys. There are 6 available airframes in helos: AH-1, UH-1, CH-53D, CH-53E, CH-46, and MV-22. They are not evenly distributed. If I get jets I have about a 80% of getting Hornets or Harriers. There are only 3 airframes: AV-8B, FA-18, and EA-6B. There are fairly few EA-6B slots per year.

Not to disparage any airframe, but I wanted to be a "trigger puller", so I went jets. I got lucky and got an airframe that does a lot of CAS, which is what I wanted to do.

As far as getting a FAC tour goes, fear not! The Marine Corps will be more than willing to accomadate your wishes when the time comes, I'm sure. It'll be about two to 3 years into your first fleet tour when you need to think about it. What it sounds like to me is that you want to be a FAC. Just tell your XO and monitor (MAG actually controlls those slots) at that time. Try to steer clear of MEU Assistant Air Officer (another Captain job). I did one of those, too (I'm currently a Division Air Officer) and it's mainly staff work.

You can be a Regimental Air Officer or Division Assistant later in your career if, like me, you'd rather do this than go to DC and live in cubicle hell. I wound up becoming the Division Air Officer when my predecessor picked up command of a squadron and I was his assistant. Lots of big picture sceduling of air and advising the General about air. Not much time "on the hill" if any.

I don't know where you're at in the pipeline, but work hard, do your best, ask for what you want, and take what you get. That's all you can do. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong. Good luck!

s/f,
 

UMichfly

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Harrier Dude said:
all Air Officers are FACS. All FACs are JTACs. But not all JTACs are FACs.

Now I see the reason for those crazy logic questions on the ASTB...

/end threadjack
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Harrier Dude said:
If I get helos I have a roughly 10% random chance of getting Cobras or Hueys. There are 6 available airframes in helos: AH-1, UH-1, CH-53D, CH-53E, CH-46, and MV-22. ,

Small nitpicking point. MV-22 is not a subset of helos at selection. It has its own pipeline. To anyone who asks, even though most Osprey pilots are former rotorheads, the Osprey is a plane that lands like a helo, not a helo that flies like a plane.

To piggyback on Harrier's comments, the rest of which were excellent--if FAC's your thing, the Big Green Gun Club will be happy to oblige you on that score, regardless of platform. To be honest, you might have a better shot getting it from a non-shooter platform. Skid guys knock over their grandmas to get FAC as their B billet. CH-46 and 53 guys usually knock each other over trying to get away!
 

MaxAvidy

Newb like woah
I'm in the PLC program right now, ocs next summer. I'm just the type that likes to get info beforehand and make sure I know what's going on even though I won't have to worry about it for awhile. In regards to airframe, I'd love to fly a hornet, but from what I hear Marines are getting stuck with older equipment and the flight hours are starting to dwindle. My next choice would be the cobra, if not just for the fact that it seems to kick ass in more ways than I can count. Also, I don't know, but it looks like the JSF might be one of my choices? I don't know if I like it though, I think I'm just old fashion (coming from a 22 year old) and like my fighters super sonic. As for FAC, I suppose that when I'm a Marine, if I'm not flying, I won't want to be doing cubical work. If the option is open to me I'll take getting in the mud over faxing TPS reports. My brother is at Parris Island right now, MOS infantry, so I'll out rank him, but he's sure as hell not going to have more "fun" than me.

BUT, like you've said, and others have said countless times on the forums, whatever airframe I get, I'll love it and I'll be damned sure to do my best. My grandfather (WWII Marine) said, "Marines may gripe, but it just gives them all the more reason to kick ass when they get a chance." I was 13 when I heard that, so it really stuck.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Phrog is right. The MV-22 is it's own pipeline. They just didn't have it when I went through, so I didn't know. Either way, doesn't helos do more of a "quality spread" thing? My point being that your chances are better of blowing stuff up if you go jets. If you get helos, unless you're #1 (as I understand it from my helo bros) then it's more of a crapshoot as to what you get. True?

By the way, the F-35B (JSF) will replace ALL TACAIR USMC platforms, so regardless of what you get now, you will transition to the F-35 sooner or later. It's supposed to be operational in 2012 if you believe the hype.

It's a great jet, from what my freinds that have flown it tell me, and it is supersonic. Not that it matters too much to me. By that time I'll hopefully be flying the freindly skies or off fishing somewhere.

The bottom line is that whatever you get, you'll like it. I know guys that were absolutley paranoid of getting 46s Okinawa and, after getting them anyway, are still here because they love it so much. There are no bad flying orders.

You'll appreciate that more after your FAC tour, but even then, I don't know a single guy that didn't enjoy his FAC tour. To repeat a previous comment on another thread, STAFF TOURS SUCK!!!! RUN AWAY IF POSSIBLE!! CHAFF!! FLARES!!

s/f,
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Harrier Dude said:
You'll appreciate that more after your FAC tour, but even then, I don't know a single guy that didn't enjoy his FAC tour. To repeat a previous comment on another thread, STAFF TOURS SUCK!!!! RUN AWAY IF POSSIBLE!! CHAFF!! FLARES!!

s/f,

Seems to be the case with everyone I meet. I was just at a JCAS conference a few weeks ago and met a Cobra pilot who was with MARSOC and was there because of his FAC tour. He was looking to go back and do it again and was asking about potential assignments with SPECWAR (there are several Naval and Marine aviators (NA and NFO) including a Cobra pilot doing ALO jobs in SPECWAR....you maintain JTAC quals and do lots of interesting "tasks" that transcend FAC...some are even jump qualled). As stated earlier, anyone with FAC (A) qual is ahead int he game as these assignments are very select and plenty of folks line up for them.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Harrier Dude said:
Phrog is right. The MV-22 is it's own pipeline. They just didn't have it when I went through, so I didn't know. Either way, doesn't helos do more of a "quality spread" thing? My point being that your chances are better of blowing stuff up if you go jets. If you get helos, unless you're #1 (as I understand it from my helo bros) then it's more of a crapshoot as to what you get. True?

I was talking w/ Marine the other day about this. He selected about 2 years ahead of me (non-Marine) and the info was interesting. When I selected, the Marines in my class would go in to a room and all the choices were on a white board. The number one guy went in first and picked what he wanted, then erased it. They did that down the line, so it appeared there was no quality spread. When talking w/ the Marine the other day, he said they didn't do that when he selected. So it may just be like everything else, it changes w/ the needs of whatever service/community.

Don't know what they do now, but I'm sure some current selectees can chime in.
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
Harrier Dude said:
By the way, the F-35B (JSF) will replace ALL TACAIR USMC platforms, so regardless of what you get now, you will transition to the F-35 sooner or later. It's supposed to be operational in 2012 if you believe the hype.


Delta Hornets too? So no more fast-mover FAC(A)'s?
 
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