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Air Superiority in the Navy

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
That's not really the purpose of air superiority/supremacy, although the ground forces might benefit in an incidental way. It's about being able to conduct an offensive air campaign without interference from the enemy, not the prevention of an enemy to conduct defensive operations against your advancing ground forces.

Brett

Not really true, just as anti air warfare is basically a support effort to allow an offensive air campaign. Everything in Aviation is dedicated to allow bombs to fall thus influencing events on the ground. Everything in the air ultimately exists to support forces on the ground, you know the guys who kick in the door and explain to our enemies the error of their ways.

There are cases in modern history where air operations were a focus unto themselves, Kosovo comes to mind but that was in effect a precursor to either enforce our will from the air and/or set the conditions should we need to introduce ground forces.

Everything in the entire American inventory save the nukes and that point is debatable exist to allow the infantry to locate close with and destroy, or do that whole nation building thing.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Everything in the entire American inventory save the nukes and that point is debatable exist to allow the infantry to locate close with and destroy, or do that whole nation building thing.

Sure, you can extrapolate any one facet of warfare to that logical end, but as long as we choose to define terms in the sense that they're understood by warfighters in general, air superiority is as I've defined it - pretty much the textbook definition.

Brett
 

TuxFlier

Registered User
Back to the part about the Navy's interest in an air supremacy platform....

These days with everyone fighting for their part of the budget, and military operations becoming more joint - it just doesn't make sense for the Navy to waste time looking for something more high tech than Hornets. If sustained A/A battles become a factor then the Navy can call it's partners in with the F/A-22.

I'm not saying that the Navy can't do A/A - just that if we truly are working in a joint environment then we can just work together and use each others assets to get missions done. And, screw the territorial battles of AF vs Navy air.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
Back to the part about the Navy's interest in an air supremacy platform....

These days with everyone fighting for their part of the budget, and military operations becoming more joint - it just doesn't make sense for the Navy to waste time looking for something more high tech than Hornets. If sustained A/A battles become a factor then the Navy can call it's partners in with the F/A-22.

I'm not saying that the Navy can't do A/A - just that if we truly are working in a joint environment then we can just work together and use each others assets to get missions done. And, screw the territorial battles of AF vs Navy air.

From that point of view, it doesn't make sense for the AF to waste time and money on a dedicated air superiority platform, hence the debate over the merits of the F-22 WRT its unit cost. The idea here isn't that one service can specialize, but that no service can truly afford a specialized platform. Both services do a good job at A/A, even though there are significant tactical and doctrinal differences between them.

Brett
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Sure, you can extrapolate any one facet of warfare to that logical end, but as long as we choose to define terms in the sense that they're understood by warfighters in general, air superiority is as I've defined it - pretty much the textbook definition.

Brett

The very definition of an offensive air campaign is support of ground forces.

Doctrinally Offensive air support is either Deep Air Support of Close Air Support. There are obviously lots of subsets but it is either bombing enemy ground forces allowing friendly success on the battle field or attacking his deep assets denying him the ability to wage war on the ground.

Air Supperiortiy is as much, maybe moreso about keeping enemy bombs from falling on our ground forces than allowing our bombers to go hit targets.

We have gotten so good at it, when was the last time American forces were under air attack that we tend to lose sight of this fact.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Back to the part about the Navy's interest in an air supremacy platform....

These days with everyone fighting for their part of the budget, and military operations becoming more joint - it just doesn't make sense for the Navy to waste time looking for something more high tech than Hornets. If sustained A/A battles become a factor then the Navy can call it's partners in with the F/A-22.

I'm not saying that the Navy can't do A/A - just that if we truly are working in a joint environment then we can just work together and use each others assets to get missions done. And, screw the territorial battles of AF vs Navy air.

As long as you have access to airfields, not always a foregone conclusion.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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The very definition of an offensive air campaign is support of ground forces.

Doctrinally Offensive air support is either Deep Air Support of Close Air Support. There are obviously lots of subsets but it is either bombing enemy ground forces allowing friendly success on the battle field or attacking his deep assets denying him the ability to wage war on the ground.

Air Supperiortiy is as much, maybe moreso about keeping enemy bombs from falling on our ground forces than allowing our bombers to go hit targets.

We have gotten so good at it, when was the last time American forces were under air attack that we tend to lose sight of this fact.

You're missing my point. Example: By your standard, the purpose of an LSO is to support the ground forces. Defining the purpose of a thing does not negate the ultimate end it serves, but for the purposes of clarity and understanding, we say that the purpose of an LSO is to bring aviators and their aircraft back aboard ship. In that vein, the definition of air superiority is a condition in which offensive air operations can be carried out unimpeded by the enemy. I know we're getting bogged down in semantics here, but I think it's important to be precise, especially when talking about commonly accepted operational definitions such as these. If a CAG LSO told me his primary job description was to support the ground troops, it wouldn't make very much sense. That's why I'm bothering to post on this issue which I think we essentially both agree on.

Brett
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
We are way wrapped around the axle and probably agree on most points. The primary point I am debating is the quote below where ground forces fighting under an umbrella of friendly fighters is somehow not the actual goal of AAW, simply a nice byproduct and this is not the case.

Air Supremacy or at least Superiority is an essential ingredient to a successful OAs campaign at the Strategic/Operational level but the overriding goal is success on the ground. The concept of an LSO (a very micro level of the battlespace that only affects a very small portion of total sorties) and the overiding purpose of an Air Supremacy campaign (a very Macro concept) are apples and oranges.

I would argue that an OAS campaign is the result of being so good at AAW that the coverage we give friendlies now extends into bad guy country allowing target prosecution

Brett, want to sign me off on Non-Resident Air Command and Staff so I dont have to go to Quantico?


That's not really the purpose of air superiority/supremacy, although the ground forces might benefit in an incidental way. It's about being able to conduct an offensive air campaign without interference from the enemy, not the prevention of an enemy to conduct defensive operations against your advancing ground forces.

Brett
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Simulations may be interesting, but they don't take into account the most important and most frequently ignored factor of aircraft performance - the aircrew. The type and quantity of training that US aircrews enjoy is orders of magnitude above what the next closest competitor nation gets.

Actually, and while this may be an issue of semantics at this point, simulations do indeed take into account the performance of an aircrew. Your post indeed identified some of the factors that affect the outcomes of a simulation between red and blue.

The training the US receives in almost all cases (read, different communities) is superior to our opposition. I would strongly disagree with anyone saying that all training is better since we don't have that much intel on everyone. That said, US aviation is, in my opinion, head and shoulders above others.

That factor is well documented in simulations. Training and preparedness is a large part of what affects it, plus things like living conditions, morale, etc, etc. Unfortunately, that is also the toughest part of running a simulation. We are very capable of predicting the response the US will have, however it is really hard to always predict the opposition's response.

The best example I have off hand is the first Gulf War in that we were expecting a significant amount of losses, but we weren't expecting the Iraqi's to essentially lay down, hence relatively few losses.

The fact that there was no mention of Naval forces in the air supremacy simulations makes me wonder about the future of Naval Aviation. Just curious on some thoughts and not trying to make a point one way or another.

Fyi, simulations exist for practically everything. However, as Scoob alluded to, there are levels of confidentiality that exists for platforms that aren't always revealed. That also applies to simulations, especially those involving the military.

Also, simulations can be tailored for just about anything out there, and while not always the case, some simulations can be run to reinforce a point of view (i.e., trying to get a government contract, proving the usefulness of a specific platform, etc). So, while the data you have may not identify a Naval contingent per se, chances are one does exist.

Man I love being an analysis nerd....
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
That said, US aviation is, in my opinion, head and shoulders above others.

While I agree...I guess I'm not sure of exactly how dominant we are individually. I certainly agree that our "aviation weapons system" is superior...that is our ability to bring our weapons to bear, employ them in combined (air-air and air-ground) operations etc...But I think its valid to ask certain questions such as...

Head to head, does the average Israeli pilot beat the average Naval aviator?? Does an Israeli F-15 driver beat the average USAF driver from a head to head merge? I don't know.
 

joboy_2.0

professional undergraduate
Contributor
Head to head, does the average Israeli pilot beat the average Naval aviator?? Does an Israeli F-15 driver beat the average USAF driver from a head to head merge? I don't know.


If I'm not mistaken, I believe A4s has had some experiences with Israeli pilots.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Head to head, does the average Israeli pilot beat the average Naval aviator?? Does an Israeli F-15 driver beat the average USAF driver from a head to head merge? I don't know.

That's an unanswerable question.

Brett
 

TurnandBurn55

Drinking, flying, or looking busy!!
None
Head to head, does the average Israeli pilot beat the average Naval aviator?? Does an Israeli F-15 driver beat the average USAF driver from a head to head merge? I don't know.

I don't know. What kind of loadout (missiles?) are they carrying? How much fuel does each have? What's commander's intent in each case? Is he part of a defensive package? A strike package? A pre-strike sweep? Are they over friendly or enemy territory? What's the altitude? Are there other blue or red planes who are in the fight, or likely to join?

The temptation is to say "Well, what if EVERYTHING is equal?? Huh huh??" That's completely irrelevant, because it ditches the idea of air superiority in the context of everything else-- the point Flash, Brett, and several others have made.

Nobody-- not even the Israelis-- faces the issue we face-- of projecting power halfway around the world on a boat. So you can't make an apples-to-apples comparison. What we're looking for out of the Rhino is versatility and upgradeable capacity more than just pure performance.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
That's an unanswerable question.

True enough...still worth asking though. The process is better than the answer.

You guys are missing my point. I know it totally depends on a nearly infinite string of what ifs. I asked it in response to Insane's assertion that the US was "heads and shoulders" better than all others. My point is...well...maybe. I just think bantering about assertions like that are not conducive to maintaing any edge we may have...nor is it really productive in terms of assessing whether that advantage exists in the first place. No offense meant Insane..;)

What we're looking for out of the Rhino is versatility and upgradeable capacity more than just pure performance.

Not arguing that at all. I think that at the moment we are equipped well.
 
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