or proper load procedures (which I think is what Flash is hinting about). It has bitten Air Force more than Navy, but did rob several Tomcat aircrews of an OSW Phoenix kill.
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Air-to-Air Missile performance (including Blue on Blue)
- Thread starter HeyJoe
- Start date
or proper load procedures (which I think is what Flash is hinting about). It has bitten Air Force more than Navy, but did rob several Tomcat aircrews of an OSW Phoenix kill.
Recall that a comms screw up likely lost VF-84 an ODS kill as well. (Although I don't know if it would have been a Phoenix)
Hey, at least they bagged a USAF RF-4
Recall that a comms screw up likely lost VF-84 an ODS kill as well. (Although I don't know if it would have been a Phoenix)
Hey, at least they bagged a USAF RF-4
That was VF-74 in both instances
I was just being a smart ass too........I just like to needle the Tomcat guys!
You are correct sir.......the F-16 was not the only lawn dart flying around.....
Recall that a comms screw up likely lost VF-84 an ODS kill as well. (Although I don't know if it would have been a Phoenix)
Hey, at least they bagged a USAF RF-4
I am not familiar with the first instance but remember reading about the second. Was it an Oregon ANG jet over the Med, diving to the the carrier when the Tomcat thought it got clearance and fired an AIM-9? Is that about right? One thing that stood out to me, the RF-4 crew consisted of a 1stLT and a 2ndLT.
Any more on the first story?
I was just being a smart ass too........I just like to needle the Tomcat guys!
You are correct sir.......the F-16 was not the only lawn dart flying around.....
It was primarily one F-15 unit that had to review their load procedures, but the F-16 guys had to review their switchology...they fought like they trained and inadvertantly launched heaters right and left off target...they never trained with live heaters and trained to wrong swichology.
The Tomcat joined up on the RF-4 while it was still tanking and followed it when it detached and started heading towards Saratoga. It was an exercise, but back then, Tomcats always flew with live ordnance. Long story short: E-2 says "Warning Red, Weapons Free". Pilot is somewhat incredulous because as a nugget, he only heard that at RAG in simulators and it meant to shoot. So he asked the RIO if he was supposed to shoot. The RIO, in a classic CRM miscommunication says go ahead and shoot (he meant for pilot to call an exercise shot). So pilot arms up and shoots an AIM-9 (or tries to, the first one fails to fire so he steps to next station and that one works as advertised). RIO is pretty startled when a Sidewinder leaves jet and heads for the tailpipe and causes F-4 to lose flight control with crew ejecting shortly thereafter. Scratch one RF-4, but the crew gets out successfully and is picked up by the Sara. Postscript - crew is very depressed (thinking their career is over having lost a jet) until they're asked if they want to meet the crew that bagged them. Then they're happy because it's not their fault.
Cool story. Never heard it before!
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
So what you're saying is that an F-14 crew owes an RF-4 crew a round of beers, for life?
Well, turns out an Air Force F-4 exchange pilot in same squadron shot down his wingman a few years prior so when Air Force tried to make fun (via FAX as Al Gore had yet to invent the InterNet and email) , the push back was "Now, we're even!"
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Jesus. I thought blue-on-blue only happened in combat. Guess not.
It has happened in Air Force several times in training leading to ultimate "blue-on-blue" and prohibition to do ACM with live missiles in peacetime whereas Navy continued practice well into 90s on widescale basis. That lead to issues in Desert Shield when Air Force F-15Cs wanted to train with Tomcats in Red Sea. Their reps finally said, "OK, we just won't look at bottoms of your aircraft"
CNO got very concerned in 1993 after VF-74 shootdown and then Sara putting a Seasparrow into bridge of escorting Turkish destroyer. There was also a stray Sidewinder that hit a merchant ship in VACAPES. A big push mandated by CNO was instituted called FIREBREAK to keep blue-on-blue training/exercise mshaps from occuring. Then there was the Air Force F-15Cs that took out the US UH-60s in ONW so blue-on-blue is unfortunate, but happens.
There is a gun camera film that I have seen several times of a US fighter blowing another up with cannon fire, apparently he forget to safe his gun during ACM. Anyone else ever see this (know the story) or was I drinking to much again?
We had a CAG trailing a 30-plane Alpha Strike, who while tuning and checking his missiles prior to going "feet dry" accidentally hoses off a Sidewinder. It flew right through the 30-plane pack, but fortunately not guiding on anybody and went 'stupid'.
All that was ever heard on frequency was – "I didn't touch a thing, I didn't touch a thing!" ….which became the big airwing joke.
So while our CAG was subsequently the butt of many private JO jokes, a few weeks later he was hit by a careening A-6 into the pack that had lost a main on landing in the wire. He was hit as he exited his A-7 on the foredeck, and it caused a compound fracture of both his legs… but also killed a few flight and flight-deck crew, and seriously injured 40. CAG eventually recovered, and retired… but he was always a great guy despite his problems with "switchology" which he was occasionally thereafter reminded by a few old, bold friends.
All that was ever heard on frequency was – "I didn't touch a thing, I didn't touch a thing!" ….which became the big airwing joke.
So while our CAG was subsequently the butt of many private JO jokes, a few weeks later he was hit by a careening A-6 into the pack that had lost a main on landing in the wire. He was hit as he exited his A-7 on the foredeck, and it caused a compound fracture of both his legs… but also killed a few flight and flight-deck crew, and seriously injured 40. CAG eventually recovered, and retired… but he was always a great guy despite his problems with "switchology" which he was occasionally thereafter reminded by a few old, bold friends.
We had a CAG trailing a 30-plane Alpha Strike, who while tuning and checking his missiles prior to going "feet dry" accidentally hoses off a Sidewinder. It flew right through the 30-plane pack, but fortunately not guiding on anybody and went 'stupid'.
All that was ever heard on frequency was – "I didn't touch a thing, I didn't touch a thing!" ….which became the big airwing joke.
So while our CAG was subsequently the butt of many private JO jokes, a few weeks later he was hit by a careening A-6 into the pack that had lost a main on landing in the wire. He was hit as he exited his A-7 on the foredeck, and it caused a compound fracture of both his legs… but also killed a few flight and flight-deck crew, and seriously injured 40. CAG eventually recovered, and retired… but he was always a great guy despite his problems with "switchology" which he was occasionally thereafter reminded by a few old, bold friends.
There have been many, many Sidewinders loosed into a package of aircraft; the vast majority by switchology gotcha by F-16s off target in Desert Storm (I used to be able to quote the number, but is been 17 years now). They weren't allowed to train with live missiles so didn't become aware that they had trained to a switchology mixup that would cause a Sidewinder to fired when they switched to A/A off target. Luckily, nobody was a victim of blue-on-blue, but the numbers caused a huge reduction in Pk of AIM-9 until Air Force fessed up to situation and a revised Pk was calculated.
On the Navy side, more than a few Sidewinders have been inadvertantly released (not launched) in the wires as aircraft deceled and Sidewinder continued down the LA at 100+ knots. Switchology strikes again!
Blue-into-the Blue aboard USS Midway
That LOOKS like a CATM. The lau 7's on the Hornet are notorious for shedding stuff if not inspected between every flight (or properly preflighted for that matter).