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Airline transition, Where to?
- Thread starter bluto
- Start date
There are no gouge answers for what you are seeking. Predicting what will happen in 4 years is a fool's game. The answers to your question change with the seasons and with the airline business cycles. Change is the constant. But at the end of the day, it's always timing and how you measure up against what your competition has to offer.
I'm not trying to sound "cute" or glib, but that's just the simple truth. I've been "there" for 30 years of the airline wars and experienced multiple up's and down's. Another truth is that you are just a piece of meat to the airlines --- you are nothing special. They would just as soon hire the guy on your left or the one on your right if "they" think either one would be a better return on "their investment" than you ... believe it.
Stay current, stay networked, stay in the game. You can make your own "luck". If you do ... and if you're there at the right time and place when you "come out", you'll get hired.
If you don't; you won't ...
My marine buddy gone Navy Reserve/Drug Dealer (the legal kind) was told by our old System Chief Pilot (thru his sponsor of course [LCA]) that 100 hours a year was the min currency... But it all comes down to timing.. Supply vs demand.. Economics 101..
Don't know why my computer does that. But I've been in the Chief Pilots Office, Flight Standards and a regular line check airman and agree that maintaining currency is important. I've been involved in training scenarios where the student hadn't flown his last few years in the military and they invariably weren't pretty. As an instructor you were trying to pull all the rabbits out of your hat to get him to see the light and if you were in the chief pilots side of the house you dreaded having to let the ones go who couldn't complete the syllabus in the allotted time. Getting a good rep with the flight standards people makes life a little easier. I know when the proffers are awarded I check to see who got what and groan when you see a WD coming down the pipeline.
If you want a good idea of management/pilot relationships thru the ages read Flying The Line. Captain Eddie, among others, was a real piece of work.
If you wind up going non current getting a B737 type isn't a bad way to spool up. Besides xing in a square for Southwest ,if you get typed in the glass cockpit it's pretty much the same automation as in the glass 747/757/767 and 777.
As far as who to fly for. When I started looking you wanted Braniff,USAir,TWA, PanAm,Eastern etc. The FedEx Falcoln 20 pilots would tell you not to bother applying because they were in deep financial trouble and UPS wasn't even on the scope. Hopefully things are a little more stable now but there are still a lot of aftershocks going through the post bankruptcy era of some of the legacies so having asecure pension would be a big plus.
If you want a good idea of management/pilot relationships thru the ages read Flying The Line. Captain Eddie, among others, was a real piece of work.
If you wind up going non current getting a B737 type isn't a bad way to spool up. Besides xing in a square for Southwest ,if you get typed in the glass cockpit it's pretty much the same automation as in the glass 747/757/767 and 777.
As far as who to fly for. When I started looking you wanted Braniff,USAir,TWA, PanAm,Eastern etc. The FedEx Falcoln 20 pilots would tell you not to bother applying because they were in deep financial trouble and UPS wasn't even on the scope. Hopefully things are a little more stable now but there are still a lot of aftershocks going through the post bankruptcy era of some of the legacies so having asecure pension would be a big plus.
That's kind of a broad question, isn't it?
Basically .... hours flown, trip rig (how long are you on the "road"), seat held, longevity, equipment flown, day/night flying, reserve guarantees, high-time premiums, international overrides, check airman overrides, per diem (meals), international base overrides (Honolulu and/or Anchorage based, for example), and, of course --- how good looking you are, amongst other considerations.
And it varies from airline to airline ... but not the good lookin' stuff. That's a constant.
Basically .... hours flown, trip rig (how long are you on the "road"), seat held, longevity, equipment flown, day/night flying, reserve guarantees, high-time premiums, international overrides, check airman overrides, per diem (meals), international base overrides (Honolulu and/or Anchorage based, for example), and, of course --- how good looking you are, amongst other considerations.
And it varies from airline to airline ... but not the good lookin' stuff. That's a constant.
Uh...you lost me at "basically".
I see posted on websites like, willflyforfood.cc wages posted as: $xx/hr + 1.30/hr per diem. For example
Alaska Airlines:
First Year 737 FO: $35/hr
Monthly Guarantee: 75hrs
Reserve Guarantee: 76hrs
Per diem Day Trip: $1.3/hr
Per diem Overnight: $2/hr
Do I read that as guaranteed 75hrs/mo at $35/hr for a total of $2,625/mo for the first year?
Is per diem calculated on how long the trip(s) is(are) or is it the length of your lay over?
And if you're ugly, can you still get an airline job?
Guarantee is the minimum you will make. Hourly pay x guaranteed hours = minimum monthly pay. Fly or get credited more than guarantee and you make more.
Per Diem from the time you check in until you check out. Say you check in at 1200 on Monday and check out at 1200 on Wednesday. You get 48 hours of per diem.
Duty rigs are meant to make the airline schedule more efficiently. Say a duty rig is 3:1. For every 3 hours from check in to check out you you get credited for 1 hour of flight pay. At the end of the trip, you get paid the greater of the pay for the hours flow or the duty rig. For example: Check in Monday at 1200, fly 2.5 hours, lay over until Wednesday, fly 2.5 hours home, check out at 1200. There were 5 hours of flight pay. 48 hours on duty = 16 hours credit. So instead of being paid 5 hours for the trip, you get paid 16 hours. Now same duty period of 48 hours but you fly 3 8 hour legs in the time. Flight pay = 24 hours and duty rig = 16 hour. You get paid 24 hours.
At Hawaiian, we also have a trip rig in addition to the duty rig. After a certain length of lay over, we start getting additional pay for our ground time. I think it is 3.5:1. This is because we have some places with 24+ hour layovers (Australia and soon PI). One of these trips typically lasts 4 days with about 20 hours flying. We typically get about 30 hours pay for the trip.
International override is an added $ amount to your hourly rate if you are flying an international trip. If your pay was $65/hr with a $5/hr override, you would get paid the $65/hr for domestic flying but $70/hr for international.
Fly on a day off and get double the hourly rate (at Hawaiian).
A good idea of then pay scales can be found at http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/. Click on the Airline profiles at the top right of the page.
I'm fat and ugly and the hired me......
Per Diem from the time you check in until you check out. Say you check in at 1200 on Monday and check out at 1200 on Wednesday. You get 48 hours of per diem.
Duty rigs are meant to make the airline schedule more efficiently. Say a duty rig is 3:1. For every 3 hours from check in to check out you you get credited for 1 hour of flight pay. At the end of the trip, you get paid the greater of the pay for the hours flow or the duty rig. For example: Check in Monday at 1200, fly 2.5 hours, lay over until Wednesday, fly 2.5 hours home, check out at 1200. There were 5 hours of flight pay. 48 hours on duty = 16 hours credit. So instead of being paid 5 hours for the trip, you get paid 16 hours. Now same duty period of 48 hours but you fly 3 8 hour legs in the time. Flight pay = 24 hours and duty rig = 16 hour. You get paid 24 hours.
At Hawaiian, we also have a trip rig in addition to the duty rig. After a certain length of lay over, we start getting additional pay for our ground time. I think it is 3.5:1. This is because we have some places with 24+ hour layovers (Australia and soon PI). One of these trips typically lasts 4 days with about 20 hours flying. We typically get about 30 hours pay for the trip.
International override is an added $ amount to your hourly rate if you are flying an international trip. If your pay was $65/hr with a $5/hr override, you would get paid the $65/hr for domestic flying but $70/hr for international.
Fly on a day off and get double the hourly rate (at Hawaiian).
A good idea of then pay scales can be found at http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/. Click on the Airline profiles at the top right of the page.
I'm fat and ugly and the hired me......
General rule of thumb is Hourly equates to yearly:
$130 per hour is about $130,000 for the year...
That is based on most folks just flying guarantee.. However, at the trash haulers (and people to some degree) there are lots of ways to plus that number up.. Box movers don't run into to many FAR restrictions with flight times (except the occasional 8 in 24) so you are nearly always paid based on some rig... I have a bud who has a trip to Stanstead next week with a 75 hour layover pays 23.5 hours.. He picked that up in addition to guarantee..
$130 per hour is about $130,000 for the year...
That is based on most folks just flying guarantee.. However, at the trash haulers (and people to some degree) there are lots of ways to plus that number up.. Box movers don't run into to many FAR restrictions with flight times (except the occasional 8 in 24) so you are nearly always paid based on some rig... I have a bud who has a trip to Stanstead next week with a 75 hour layover pays 23.5 hours.. He picked that up in addition to guarantee..
"General rule of thumb" for me is: I'd be making @ 1/3 LESS and flying MORE hours -- just about anywhere I look today, post 9/11 ..... i.e., flying more and enjoying it less.
"Rule of thumb" ... I love it. You know where the "thumb" usually goes, too ....
"Pull up the ladder; I've got mine" .... that's what the ol' guys said when I first came onboard the airlines. Now I see what they meant ....
"Rule of thumb" ... I love it. You know where the "thumb" usually goes, too ....
"Pull up the ladder; I've got mine" .... that's what the ol' guys said when I first came onboard the airlines. Now I see what they meant ....
One more thing about "trip rig" and "duty rig" for the unwashed:
Those two pay categories came about as a result of the airline managements/SKEDs self-serving practice of sending you downline someplace (usually somewhere nice, like Shemya Is.) and letting you sit there for 3-4 days until the next flight came in ... that's as in -- sit there with no pay. You're not flying, so you don't get paid, right???
THAT's F'ing-A' WRONG !!! .... EXCEPT .... in the pre-trip rig days, our crews would sit on Shemya for 4-5 days. With the stews, of course ...
Sooooooooo .... on a long Orient trip, i.e., 12-13 days ... you will usually get paid trip rig for the entire period, unless you do a lot of crossings (TRANSPAC's generate more "hard" flight hours) -- which are also VERY HARD on the ol' bod when you shake, not stir them for, oh, say 25-30 years???
If you are senior enough -- you bid trips which have only two crossings -- one outbound, one inbound to base -- and the rest of the days/nights you fly "interport" in the Orient; basically north-south. Think time zones and your body and sleep. Mo' Bettah ....
Surf's up, Shemya style ... [SIZE=-1]52° 43’ N. 174° 07’ E. This is on a rare clear day -- flying the NOPAC for 25 years, I saw Shemya on an overflight with the Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball exactly 3 times, and two of those were at night.
[/SIZE]
Those two pay categories came about as a result of the airline managements/SKEDs self-serving practice of sending you downline someplace (usually somewhere nice, like Shemya Is.) and letting you sit there for 3-4 days until the next flight came in ... that's as in -- sit there with no pay. You're not flying, so you don't get paid, right???
THAT's F'ing-A' WRONG !!!
.... EXCEPT .... in the pre-trip rig days, our crews would sit on Shemya for 4-5 days. With the stews, of course ... Sooooooooo .... on a long Orient trip, i.e., 12-13 days ... you will usually get paid trip rig for the entire period, unless you do a lot of crossings (TRANSPAC's generate more "hard" flight hours) -- which are also VERY HARD on the ol' bod when you shake, not stir them for, oh, say 25-30 years???
If you are senior enough -- you bid trips which have only two crossings -- one outbound, one inbound to base -- and the rest of the days/nights you fly "interport" in the Orient; basically north-south. Think time zones and your body and sleep. Mo' Bettah ....
Surf's up, Shemya style ... [SIZE=-1]52° 43’ N. 174° 07’ E. This is on a rare clear day -- flying the NOPAC for 25 years, I saw Shemya on an overflight with the Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball exactly 3 times, and two of those were at night.
[/SIZE]
