Are stories of the SWO community valid?

[Uncle Fester]

Does no one in the surface community see the blatant ORM issues involved in sleep-depriving the very people who are in charge of keeping 9,000 tons of steel off the rocks and combat effective?...Is the theory that because you've got ten people on the bridge, that statistically they won't nod off at the same time?

Let me tell you about the time that the entire bridge watch did fall asleep at the same time. My first midwatch as OOD, too. You get into the "midwatch body wedge" in some likely corner of the bridge, 0200, steaming in circles in the literal middle of nowhere...next thing you know, you come to with a start and as you look around, grateful the Captain didn't decide to wander up just then...and realize every man jack on the bridge is out cold. Holy balls. "Messenger! Coffee NOW!"

SWO's are like doctors when it comes to sleep deprivation. Docs will tell you that of course it's a bad idea for someone to be on call and sleepless for 36 hours, "But of course, I did it when I was a resident; I guess we were just tougher then and better doctors with manlier constitutons..." You hear the same bullshit from SWO's. "Certainly you should get some sleep before standing watch. Although, I could go a week without sleep when I was an Ensign and still get all my PQS signoffs done early and had all my E-3 and below evals in to XO a week before they were due...you pussy."

 

[wink]

I can't deny SWO life is hard and frequently ridiculous, from our perspective. I am not a SWO for a reason. We all chose aviation, if some belatedly. We rejected SWO. So guys that chose aviation don't recommend SWO, stop the presses, there is news? SWOs that changed to aviation are the career version of a transsexual, an aviator stuck in a SWO body by accident (sorry for the imagery Fester). They are predisposed to find every fault with SWO. SWO life is not in their DNA. While not useless, don't you think that if every SWO you talk to about SWO was getting out, or changed designators, your view would be biased by their decisions? Thousands of guys stay SWO for a reason and it isn't all running from an ex wife, or inability to find a civilian job. Of those thousands some unknown percentage are good leaders who see the necessity of the hard work required to crew a navy vessel and appreciate the value of their subordinates hard work and dedication. We don't know if a future 'good' career SWO is reading this thread. What value is there in discouraging an idealistic young leader from a community that so badly needs them? Are we really lacking in hard charging JOs and enlightened leadership in aviation so badly we need just one more convert from SWO? We certainly don't need to validate our own decisions. We all know naval aviation is/was a good place to be, for us.

 

[wink]

A couple of weeks ago an active duty SWO LT relieving me on watch showed me a brief on the NPC site, I looked but can't find it. It showed a projected shortfall for SWO DH's of about 40% for his YG and after, 03/04. Hardly any of the active duty SWO LT's were I drill are staying, the one I know who might is trying to go FTS since they hardly ever get sea duty apparently. The guys getting out are getting calls from several ADM's asking them to stay in, but none of them want to endure going out to sea again.

Poor retention and mishaps are the only things that will lead to necessary change in the SWO community. The human factors issues associated with operating the ship and it's systems simply does not get enough attention. When it gets too costly, in bent steel, lives lost and poor retention, maybe something will change for the better.

 

[MasterBates]

Wink, maybe, JUST MAYBE if the SWO leadership (and by that I mean CDR and above) would get rid of some of the self imposed pain, they would get a higher quality of guys to stay.

I know many SWOs who are excellent officers, capable leaders, and generally good dudes.

90% of them saw they could be leaders, and excel in another career without all the self imposed pain. It's not like they do a Hell Week just to test that they CAN do it when the chips are down. It's a never ending cycle of pain.

It will NEVER be a 9-5 job. The SWOs I know are good with that. What they don't like is the wasted hours on shenanigans. The pain for the sake of pain stuff.

I love flying, and being a Naval Aviator (and scaring NFOs, as an added side benefit) but if we got like that, I would drop my letter in a heartbeat.

 

[CAMike]

Good posts about SWO life. Keep in mind that your CO/XO determine about 95% of your SWO life experience. I personally had one excellent CO an one OK CO, both XO's were scarey and to be avoided. Oh the stories about how I pissed off the XO. Then again I knew is wasn't a 20 year guy.

What's sad is that there are probably several senior SWO's that will likely read this thread and little or nothing will change. 60 years of the same management methods must be too hard to change. God forbid SW life ever becomes desireable.

Enjoy the 1310 experience!

 

[wink]

I am wondering what the difference is like between USS and USNS SWO life given the heavy civilian influence on the USNS ships. I always heard general habitability was better on the USNS ships, but what about leadership and work load? Also, has anyone noticed senior SWOs having different command climate and leadership styles on shore duty and staff vs sea duty? I suspect you do. So they aren't all pricks all the time?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Again, I disagree, wink. The miserable SWO's aren't just the ones who've gone on to other things because they hated the life; those were just the ones motivated enough to do the paperwork and lucky enough to be accepted (more lucky than good, in my case; there just happened to be a dearth of NFO's in my YG when I applied for redes, and the timing was right that I got my pin quickly).

The Surface Navy is an unhappy company, period. The quality of life is poor, and the leadership is ignoring the problems or pretending the problem is something besides culture. Yes, everyone who wears the uniform accepts some hardship, but most of the Surface hardships are self-imposed - and SWO's will be the first to tell you that - and excessive. This is why SWO's are voting with their feet. The poor retention numbers don't speak well at all for the climate of the Surface Navy; Air complains about our retention numbers, but the SWO's only dream of having the numbers stay in that we do.

The "bribes" they offer for JO's to stay in for their DH tours are breathtaking - everything from the Bonus, to no-strings-just-please-stay-in fully-funded postgrad work to the most fantastic shore jobs imaginable - and yet no one's taking them. Every single Divvo on my boat was either planning on leaving the Navy or redesignating. Can you imagine a squadron where that would be the case? Where the consensus opinion is not so much "Skipper/XO/Ops/etc is an asshole, this squadron sucks, it'll be better when he leaves," but "Naval Aviation is nothing but pain, I'm leaving"? Of course not. Yet this is the accepted reality of the Surface world.

If your basic point is that I should stop scaring the lad and just let him figure out for himself whether to hate the Surface Navy, yes, I see what you're getting at. My point is that I'm hardly speaking just one random asshole Lieutenant's opinion. There is a serious problem of leadership, morale and even safety in the SWO side, it's community-wide, and young bucks headed for that job should be aware of what they're getting into. Telling them "it's not that bad" does them no benefit.

 

[wink]

Again, I disagree, wink. The miserable SWO's aren't just the ones who've gone on to other things because they hated the life; those were just the ones motivated enough to do the paperwork and lucky enough to be accepted (more lucky than good, in my case; there just happened to be a dearth of NFO's in my YG when I applied for redes, and the timing was right that I got my pin quickly).

The Surface Navy is an unhappy company, period. The quality of life is poor, and the leadership is ignoring the problems or pretending the problem is something besides culture. Yes, everyone who wears the uniform accepts some hardship, but most of the Surface hardships are self-imposed - and SWO's will be the first to tell you that - and excessive. This is why SWO's are voting with their feet. The poor retention numbers don't speak well at all for the climate of the Surface Navy; Air complains about our retention numbers, but the SWO's only dream of having the numbers stay in that we do.

The "bribes" they offer for JO's to stay in for their DH tours are breathtaking - everything from the Bonus, to no-strings-just-please-stay-in fully-funded postgrad work to the most fantastic shore jobs imaginable - and yet no one's taking them. Every single Divvo on my boat was either planning on leaving the Navy or redesignating. Can you imagine a squadron where that would be the case? Where the consensus opinion is not so much "Skipper/XO/Ops/etc is an asshole, this squadron sucks, it'll be better when he leaves," but "Naval Aviation is nothing but pain, I'm leaving"? Of course not. Yet this is the accepted reality of the Surface world.

If your basic point is that I should stop scaring the lad and just let him figure out for himself whether to hate the Surface Navy, yes, I see what you're getting at. My point is that I'm hardly speaking just one random asshole Lieutenant's opinion. There is a serious problem of leadership, morale and even safety in the SWO side, it's community-wide, and young bucks headed for that job should be aware of what they're getting into. Telling them "it's not that bad" does them no benefit.

I can't disagree with your experience or observations. I see the retention problem and have heard the complaints for over 25 years. But what about the guys staying in? Why are they doing it? Why stay if it is so bad? I am saying that there must be some commands out there that are not completely miserable. Some of those guys will stay in. Hopefully they will produce junior officers that will stay in and be a positive influence on their wardroom when they go to sea as D.H.s. And a new guy can hope to be in such a command, learn from the better SWOs and become part of the solution. We know big Navy is moving too slow on the issues that most effect safety and readiness. So change within is the only way.

 

[MasterBates]

The SWOs I know who stay in either have:
1-visions of command at sea in their head
2-are prior E's and are "THIS CLOSE" to 20 or waiting until they hit 8 as an O
3-have no job prospects outside the USN (or their spouses are convinced they don't)

The #1s are sometimes #3s, but not all #3s are #1s.

Not a SWO, but as an HSL guy, I worked closer to SWOs and lived with/hung out with more SWOs than an Aviator from most any other community.

There are certain communities in Naval Aviation that vote with their feet, but nowhere to the degree of SWOs. HSL used to have (might still) the worst retention of all aviation communites, but due to thee force structure in that community, it never really caused problems. 3 guys from my squadron in my YG have stayed Navy but Lat Xfr'd to a different community (AEDO, JAG) or a different aircraft (Me, E-2s) and that was while we were there. There were 2 other guys who did the community xfr out of their shore tour.

But yeah, our problem is nowhere near the SWO problem.

 

[BigL17]

Just read all your informative and at times scary posts about the SWO community. But it has not dampen my interests in becoming a SWO, if anything I feel it will prepare me for the so called "STAB, STAB, LOOK STAB" environs that seems to be synonymous with SW life. The retention numbers for SWO's are low, and I feel that I would have an opportunity to do some good. If i don't do it sounds like no one is going to.

And if it sucks with the certainty as so many stated then maybe when I leave i can look back on what I have endured and say wow that did really suck and I'm glad I'm out, or I'm glad I did that even though it was onerous and exhausting.

Either way I enjoyed reading this thread and the tails of the SW life. Its always good to get both sides of the story instead of the spoon fed bull from some recruiters.

Just my two cents.

 

[MasterBates]

So do you go see a Dominatrix for fun, or only when you are kidnapped?

Because that would probably be more enjoyable than SWO.

 

[BigL17]

So do you go see a Dominatrix for fun, or only when you are kidnapped?

Only on a Thursday, the prices are cheaper then.

 

[Gatordev]

Just read all your informative and at times scary posts about the SWO community. But it has not dampen my interests in becoming a SWO, if anything I feel it will prepare me for the so called "STAB, STAB, LOOK STAB" environs that seems to be synonymous with SW life. The retention numbers for SWO's are low, and I feel that I would have an opportunity to do some good. If i don't do it sounds like no one is going to.

And if it sucks with the certainty as so many stated then maybe when I leave i can look back on what I have endured and say wow that did really suck and I'm glad I'm out, or I'm glad I did that even though it was onerous and exhausting.

Either way I enjoyed reading this thread and the tails of the SW life. Its always good to get both sides of the story instead of the spoon fed bull from some recruiters.

Just my two cents.

Just remember, it's not the pilots' fault that they get to sleep and you don't. Sometimes that fact gets lost on an angry SWO.

 

[BigRed389]

MB is 100% spot on for retention. I've met several DH's and future DH's in the school pipeline. The VAST majority were prior enlisted close to 20 years, tempted by the bonus, and more recently, worried about economic prospects on the outside/family support issues.

Let me put it this way...if you get a SWO pin (and that is sadly, no longer the distinguished accomplishment it was meant to be), the DH selection process is whoever raises their hand.
They offer 75K off the bat just to commit. To bribe us further, we get offered choice shore duty billets, NPS at Monterey, MBA programs at Harvard, Penn, etc., some seriously FANTASTIC opportunities...just to convince you to TAKE A BONUS AND FOUR YEARS OF SEA DUTY. And like MB said, it still doesn't convince many to stay.
O-4 selection is even more ridiculous...94% last cycle.
This makes DH's and XO's a pain in the ass to deal with. The DHs who are supposed to "mentor" JOs often arrive at the ship struggling to stay afloat and get up to speed themselves.

The community brief at SWOS was trying to sell JO's(an audience of JOs who were ready to get their pins upon returning to their ships and complete their 1st tour shortly) with the great selection rates...personally I found it discouraging.

The surface fleet's issues also extends far past JOs. If you just think the SWO side is jacked up, it's less than half the picture.

I have seen countless fantastic, highly intelligent sailors leave the Navy. On the way out, the attitude always reflects, "I'm so glad I'm done with this shit." Even worse, similar to the SWO community, the brightest stars choose to move on, while the mediocre types are more likely to stay...especially the ones who learned the "system" and know how to scrape by on mediocrity.

Money's getting cut, making repairs painful to accomplish. We also use ridiculously antiquated shit...the first time I was shown a burnt out circuit card assembly I was horrified...we use 1970's type CCAs, not microchips, and they cost THOUSANDS of dollars for each CCA. Oh, and the fuckers love to burn out constantly, and are highly finicky to power fed.

Training in rate for maintainers has been cut, so the shore maintenance activities are getting overloaded, and now jump from fire to fire...ie the next ship to deploy, do INSURV, etc.

Underway time has been cut, this kills training opportunities at sea...even worse, if you DO go to sea, it means you cram a ridiculous number of things into a single short underway. That's how the 48hr no sleep marathons happen. We're going to go from Main Space Fire, to GQ, to Cruise Missile scenario, to ASW scenario, a fantail gun shoot to get gun quals up, a VBSS drill/MOB drill while the RHIB is out, a Surface/Air scenario simulating Iran, shoot Countermeasure Washdown, do a high speed run, and finish off with a Sea and Anchor detail coming home. And yes we REALLY did something like that in 48hrs.

Manpower's been cut, making OJT training more difficult to accomplish...you can't "build up" watchstanders. I know a ship about to deploy with 4 QMs. Only one will be fully qualified. One is a Signalman who crossrated (Signalmen knew nothing about Nav Plotting). Two arrived on their first ship. One is TAD to the mess decks. I wished my buddy luck and hope they don't hit anything when he's OOD.

Said ship also has TWO trained mount captains for the 5" gun.
Said ship apparently had to hold a guy past PRD to go on deployment to be 1 of 2 5" gun shooters.
When they're in an area where the 5" has to be ready to go at all times, those guys are going to be running ragged.

Oddly enough, as far as training goes, I also find that the air side types seem to be the most up to date...ASTACs and AICs who are incompetent are threatened with having their quals pulled from off ship, something I never see anywhere else.

I could go on and on, but I don't think I have enough room.

 

[eddie]

^^
So where does that leave you?