Are stories of the SWO community valid?

[CAMike]

So I'll propose the following:

If you 1310's are at the boat and you observe "poor management" by a ranking peer or near ranking fellow "O's", ask to discuss their approach in private- even though they will almost surely tell you it's not your problem or you're sticking your nose into the wrong warfare specialty.

Hey- we all work for the same company and we all share in the manning ebbs and flows. At this company we don't tolerate Racism or Sexism- so why should we tolerate what in the CIV world would be unacceptable management methods?

I'm not saying this to we a wise guy- but if we stand by and watch this style of mgmt continue- aren't we all partialy contributing to the ongoing 60 year problem? Specifically that SW is just that- a state of management misery at it's highest level.

(Obviously the issue of unrealistic optempo's going on for extended periods of time is way above us.)

 

[Gatordev]

So I'll propose the following:

If you 1310's are at the boat and you observe "poor management" by a ranking peer or near ranking fellow "O's", ask to discuss their approach in private- even though they will almost surely tell you it's not your problem or you're sticking your nose into the wrong warfare specialty.

Hey- we all work for the same company and we all share in the manning ebbs and flows. At this company we don't tolerate Racism or Sexism- so why should we tolerate what in the CIV world would be unacceptable management methods?

I'm not saying this to we a wise guy- but if we stand by and watch this style of mgmt continue- aren't we all partialy contributing to the ongoing 60 year problem? Specifically that SW is just that- a state of management misery at it's highest level.

(Obviously the issue of unrealistic optempo's going on for extended periods of time is way above us.)

A good point, but the problem I've witnessed in the past (and just now, having just returned for ShoeEX #3) was not the DHs and lower. Yeah, some of them don't know how to work as a team and that can be counseled on the side, and some are just incompetent, but again, not a lot that can be done there. The main problem I've witnessed is either a CO who has his own "style," an XO who doesn't understand the world beyond the POD and drills, or a combo of the two (my first cruise). Trying to make the XO understand that operational tasking could possibly be more important than whether we have a main space can be a "challenge."

 

[Mumbles]

Just read all your informative and at times scary posts about the SWO community. But it has not dampen my interests in becoming a SWO, if anything I feel it will prepare me for the so called "STAB, STAB, LOOK STAB" environs that seems to be synonymous with SW life. The retention numbers for SWO's are low, and I feel that I would have an opportunity to do some good. If i don't do it sounds like no one is going to.

And if it sucks with the certainty as so many stated then maybe when I leave i can look back on what I have endured and say wow that did really suck and I'm glad I'm out, or I'm glad I did that even though it was onerous and exhausting.

Either way I enjoyed reading this thread and the tails of the SW life. Its always good to get both sides of the story instead of the spoon fed bull from some recruiters.

Just my two cents.

Dude, as a fellow 'nole, I feel that it's incumbent on me to try to talk you out of this:icon_tong

 

[BigRed389]

Just remember, it's not the pilots' fault that they get to sleep and you don't. Sometimes that fact gets lost on an angry SWO.

From what I've heard (only a few cases) it's not that the pilots GET to sleep, it's when a HSL JO draws his curtain to tell his SWO roommate getting ready to take a bridge watch to pipe down while getting dressed b/c he needs his "crew rest."

If those were the only facts, I'd probably want to punch him too.

 

[MasterBates]

I had a ENS SWO roommate, who decided to have division meetings in my stateroom.

Not just a couple dudes talking, but a SWO, CPO and 1-3 PO1s.

I talked to them a couple times about this.. We were flying 12 hours a night, landing at 0530, grabbing breakfast/shower and racking out. And they would do this at 0715ish, just as I was falling asleep.

After a week of this my OIC gave me the blessing to "do what's needed".. I kept a couple pairs of boots in the rack, and opened the curtain and chucked them at the jackass SWO.. (I HAD warned him).

Size 17 boot meets ass. SWO turns around.. 2nd boot meets balls.

ENS was pissed.. Our roommate (who was also trying to sleep, but was a SWO Nuke) applauded from the top rack.

His DH (LT who was not a fan of me) wanted to "Talk" to me about it.. My OIC told him to f-off.

Never had a problem the rest of the cruise.

 

[BigRed389]

So I'll propose the following:

If you 1310's are at the boat and you observe "poor management" by a ranking peer or near ranking fellow "O's", ask to discuss their approach in private- even though they will almost surely tell you it's not your problem or you're sticking your nose into the wrong warfare specialty.

Hey- we all work for the same company and we all share in the manning ebbs and flows. At this company we don't tolerate Racism or Sexism- so why should we tolerate what in the CIV world would be unacceptable management methods?

I'm not saying this to we a wise guy- but if we stand by and watch this style of mgmt continue- aren't we all partialy contributing to the ongoing 60 year problem? Specifically that SW is just that- a state of management misery at it's highest level.

(Obviously the issue of unrealistic optempo's going on for extended periods of time is way above us.)

What if the problem is the CO/XO? And even worse, what if they're under pressure from above (Commodore) and that's where the ridiculous requirements are being driven from.
And what if the requirements which make no sense come from SURFLANT?

ASW certification requirements just changed to something pretty much impossible to accomplish without increasing ship underway time, and increasing P-3/HSL squadron flight hours. Of course, now this year they're talking about cutting back on both due to burning through operational funding so quickly.

What if rating mergers and reduced training is the obstacle? The TM/GM, CT/EW, SM/QM mergers have all negatively impacted the proficiency of those ratings.

Better management practices shipboard will improve community morale, which in turn would probably improve baseline productivity, but it won't make a miracle to overall readiness.

These are of course the opinions of a mere JO who probably doesn't know even half the story.

 

[m0tbaillie]

I haven't posted too much lately because I've actually been busy with school for once, but I've have a few thoughts after having read this thread.

Most of the regulars on this site know that I'm in the SWO/IP BDCP program (this statement is really for those who don't).

Most people I have talked to about going SWO (with the IP option) have immediately started with a long-winded tirade about how terrible and shitty and grueling and demanding SWO-life is and how they eat their young and whatnot. I'm not denying that it's a rough community, and I realize that the Brown/Black shoe bashing will probably always exist, but the OP is right..

Change starts with small baby-steps. You guys sitting here bashing the community and telling prospectuses how much it sucks and how they're all self-loathing hateful bastard and whatnot isn't going to inflict change. It simply is not. You're allowing people who aren't even commissioned yet to automatically have a negative representation of a community that, while some of you may have worked around, most of you have never actually been a part of and it really isn't fair.

I haven't said much because I brush off a lot of the SWO-bashing on this site and I'm used to it. However, there are a lot of people lurking that I'm sure are taking a lot of this to heart. Nobody is denying that the community may have its faults and that it is tough, but to present only the negative aspects of the community and to knock it into glue simply isn't fair to anybody who may have actually had their heart set on that community.

Nothing will ever change if people do nothing but promulgate the same negative attitude and the same negative stereotypes about the community.

 

[Gatordev]

These are of course the opinions of a mere JO who probably doesn't know even half the story.

Perhaps, but you're pretty perceptive to the realities of the world. It's a problem. It needs to be fixed, but don't hold your breath. Just know that similar issues occur outside of SWO-dom (like aviation), it's just that our quality of life is better so we're not so bitter (in general).

 

[HeyJoe]

As to the SWO's on the CVN, they all seemed pretty happy and didn't seem to be grumbling any more or less then the staff guys or the disassociated brown shoes in the ship's company.

Well, big difference, they were working for CO/XO who were both aviators.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Change won't really come to the SWO community until it accepts a couple of different things:

One, it's counter-productive and dangerous to deprive your officers of sleep. Just having your crew well-rested makes an amazing difference in performance and morale; and as the Air side knows, performance when even somewhat sleep-deprived (let alone, a couple days without it) is equivalent to performance when drunk.

Two, it's the responsibility of the leadership (DH, XO, Captain) to make sure that the crew has ample time to sleep and relax. You'd be amazed how obvious that seems, and yet many SWO leaders would roll their eyes and make jerk-off motions if someone told them that. If leadership accepted that crew rest / crew day isn't a "not to interfere with work" thing, but an absolute, the benefits would roll downhill. Stupid little tasking starts sliding, and then everyone starts realizing how unimportant that stupid little tasking was.

Third, peer pressure should be reoriented toward healthy directions. I once got "taken aside" by a fellow Divvo (...yeah) because my knocking off at 1600 every day was making everyone look bad. I should be sticking around until 1800 or until the XO leaves, like them. That sort of idiocy rolls downhill and contributes to the venomous hate of the community.

 

[Spekkio]

Maybe I'm getting too cynical too soon, but it seems like the only change that can occur comes from those with stars on their collars, and by then they're so instilled with "I walked to school 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways" syndrome that it doesn't matter.

As someone pointed out before -- a DH, XO, or CAPT typically doesn't give a rats ass if an ENS or JG thinks the crew would benefit from more sleep. As one LT put it to me: "The only thing an ENS/JG is to a CO is a 'relieved for cause' waiting to happen."

 

[Pistol719]

I feel that I would have an opportunity to do some good. If i don't do it sounds like no one is going to.



Just my two cents.

Rep points for this bud... spot on... I agree with you whole heartily.. This is half my driving force to be a SWO.. I was enlisted for 6 years and spent 4 1/2 of those on a ship (1/2 for Boot/A-School and my last year I was hand picked to be an instructor at STG A School)

I believe there is bullshit/drama/mayhem in every community.. We work for the government!!! It is a given!! It was like that in the military, it is like that in my federal civilian job!

SWO might have it worse then others.. But speaking from first hand experience, my dual warfare quals and the salt on my shoulders I can tell you this.. The Fleet needs more like minded people like me and you.. Just simply by that sentence I quoted that told me enough I needed to know...

If you can go into the fleet with the attitude of wanting to make a positive change and you are willing to TACTFULLY (Note that word) voice your opinion and do what is in your power to find that impossible sweet spot of pleasing your sailors and accomplishing the mission then you already won half the battle.

Every command is different... speaking from an enlisted point of view obviously I cannot comment on the back door politics that go on in the wardroom as they are nothing I know about yet... I can tell you this... I am a VERY excellent judge of character in a person.. I've had good leadership (CO/XO/DH) and I've had horrible leadership (CO/XO/DH). One thing that I have always noticed... A good leader is a good people person.. I still remember my first ship USS Belleau Wood while in port our CO would randomly give us days off just because he felt we were working hard... That may not seem like much in the grand scheme of things.. But he got a return on this ten fold.. When it was go time for deployment, workups, Ops.. We handed our business like none other..
Food for thought.. that CAPT went on to become a 2 Star last time I checked

Just kinda going off on a rant here so please excuse me guys.. Just basically getting at I've noticed alot of flack come towards the SWO community lately.. for obvious reasons of course reading the paper.. But there are people out there willing to make a change or willing to set the example.. You learn from good leadership and you learn from bad leadership.. It is how you display these traits as to what results you will yield. Personally if it is as cutthroat as it seems to be..I like a challenge

 

[Gatordev]

Every command is different... speaking from an enlisted point of view obviously I cannot comment on the back door politics that go on in the wardroom as they are nothing I know about yet... I can tell you this... I am a VERY excellent judge of character in a person.. I've had good leadership (CO/XO/DH) and I've had horrible leadership (CO/XO/DH). One thing that I have always noticed... A good leader is a good people person.. I still remember my first ship USS Belleau Wood while in port our CO would randomly give us days off just because he felt we were working hard... That may not seem like much in the grand scheme of things.. But he got a return on this ten fold.. When it was go time for deployment, workups, Ops.. We handed our business like none other..

That's all well and good, but what if your judge of character tells you your boss (CO/XO/DH) is the opposite of those good things? You can do all the things you mentioned, as well as find ways to "resist" their "leadership techniques" (and by resist, I mean SERE resist. Those that know what I mean, know what I mean), but if at the end of the day your CO/XO/DH doesn't take inputs from his O's, dictates edicts rather than makes decisions based on reason, and/or is generally a pain in the ass, your life still sucks.

Are all ships like this? No, of course not, but there are plenty that are and it sucks for everyone. Yes, even the aviators.

 

[Pistol719]

That's all well and good, but what if your judge of character tells you your boss (CO/XO/DH) is the opposite of those good things? You can do all the things you mentioned, as well as find ways to "resist" their "leadership techniques" (and by resist, I mean SERE resist. Those that know what I mean, know what I mean), but if at the end of the day your CO/XO/DH doesn't take inputs from his O's, dictates edicts rather than makes decisions based on reason, and/or is generally a pain in the ass, your life still sucks.

Are all ships like this? No, of course not, but there are plenty that are and it sucks for everyone. Yes, even the aviators.

LOL NO doubt ... I agree with what your saying.. I've had my share of bosses like that both Chiefs and Civilian Managers. There isn't much to be said if the upper echelon has Q-tips in their ears =/ I guess what I was getting as was there is that hope of eventually getting to that position and being different then what you have observed..

Example... Going through A school I thought most of the instructors and BDO's were assholes.. This is partially due to the fact I was 17,18 years old yes.. But ultimately I felt that it was a bit in excess. Fast forward 5 years later I was a NMT instructor at STG school. I held martial law when needed, other times I treated my sailors with the respect and courtesy as I would if they were on a ship with me... Even to this day I still get random facebook invites from some of my former students and I was only there 10 months.

Ultimately I suppose it's just how much bullshit you can put up with initially to get to the level of being able to make a change.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I think you optimistic "change from within" dudes are overestimating your ability to swallow bullshit for the requisite years until you reach command. But whatever, do your thing, dare to dream, baby.

On the other hand...every once in a while in the SWO house, you get to do some cool shit.