Army Nightstalkers/Marines helo question

[ChuckMK23]

I don't know if "cowboy" is the right word - they have a true warrior mindset and put the mission above all else. They are NOT adverse to risk - and they have areputation for aggressive flying techniques that they gradually work up to then practice day in and day out.

Their funding allows that sort of approach - and more imprtanytly they have SOP that allows a great deal of flexibility yet they have hard and fast rules of things they know they won't do as far as illumination, weather, etc.

I always looked at the 160 SOAR and Air Force SOS squadrons with a bit of envy. They carefully research the limits of the technology they have and make full use of it - it's a deeply engrained culture as well as a culture of commitment to press things to get the mission accomplished.

Notice during the Liberia embassy operations it was AF MH-60 Pave Hawks moving Marines from the ship and not the organic ACE (is it still called the ACE?)

Not to take anything away from the USMC guys/gals - if they had the level of flight hour funding like the special ops community has they could be easily on par.

But a lot of it is cultural - look at the approach the Army and AF has to tactical training in undergraduate pilot training versus Navy/Marine Corp. We make good commercial level helicopter pilots out of the HT's - that's the mindset -

I've said this before on these forums - politically the USMC/USN have a pretty awful stigma dating back to Desert One that the elite warrior/special operations community has not forgotten...

 

[skidkid]

The guys that went into Liberia were FAST (Fleet anti-terrorism teams) basically on loan to theState department who do missions like that, they do not have an ACE available there was nothing in that insert that any ACE couldnt do. AS far as making comercial helicopter pilots I dont think that was the case when I went through and if it is now things are F#cked up. Dot the HTs do tactics NO but I dont want them to wait until the RAg fleet squadrons for that. Yes the 160th fly a lot more NVGs and get looser training rules but they only bring out 1-2 pods of rockets and some gun Ill take a Cobra or a Huey any day over them for the missions we find ourselves in.
I realize right now there is this super mystique about special operations forces but they do have their limitations.

 

[bunk22]

Woodford Reserve? Knob Creek? I assume we're talking Bourbon here.

That's more like it I'm a simple man, I enjoy Jack or Maker's Mark.

 

[Grant]

That's more like it I'm a simple man, I enjoy Jack or Maker's Mark.

Mmmm... Maker's Mark.

 

[Broadsword2004]

I've said this before on these forums - politically the USMC/USN have a pretty awful stigma dating back to Desert One that the elite warrior/special operations community has not forgotten...

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what do you mean by "a pretty awful stigma?" Do they consider the USMC and Navy helo pilots cowards or something, or just not trained enough?

 

[46Driver]

I don't know if "cowboy" is the right word - they have a true warrior mindset and put the mission above all else. They are NOT adverse to risk - and they have areputation for aggressive flying techniques that they gradually work up to then practice day in and day out.

Their funding allows that sort of approach - and more imprtanytly they have SOP that allows a great deal of flexibility yet they have hard and fast rules of things they know they won't do as far as illumination, weather, etc.

I always looked at the 160 SOAR and Air Force SOS squadrons with a bit of envy. They carefully research the limits of the technology they have and make full use of it - it's a deeply engrained culture as well as a culture of commitment to press things to get the mission accomplished.

Notice during the Liberia embassy operations it was AF MH-60 Pave Hawks moving Marines from the ship and not the organic ACE (is it still called the ACE?)

Not to take anything away from the USMC guys/gals - if they had the level of flight hour funding like the special ops community has they could be easily on par.

But a lot of it is cultural - look at the approach the Army and AF has to tactical training in undergraduate pilot training versus Navy/Marine Corp. We make good commercial level helicopter pilots out of the HT's - that's the mindset -

I've said this before on these forums - politically the USMC/USN have a pretty awful stigma dating back to Desert One that the elite warrior/special operations community has not forgotten...

I gotta disagree. Reference both the Mogadishua embassy mission (CH-53E's) as well as the O'Grady mission being flown by CH-53E's and AH-1W's instead of special ops forces.

 

[Flash]

I gotta disagree. Reference both the Mogadishua embassy mission (CH-53E's) as well as the O'Grady mission being flown by CH-53E's and AH-1W's instead of special ops forces.

Yeah, but do SOCOM guys take along an O-5 and an O-6 for missions like that? From my understanding the MEU and BLT CO's (correct terms?) went along for the ride. Not everyone was happy about that.

I talked to a MH-53 guy who had been a CH-53 guy in his prior Marine life and he did not have the best of praise for the O'Grady op. Not for the execution but for how long it took for them to get it done. The Marines took a lot longer than they said they would to get off the ground than they said originally, hours later, and nullified their advantage of being closer. Getting there before the Air Force was the primary reason for sending the Marines in the first place. Another thing he mentioned was the equipment on the MH-53 Pave Low birds was light years ahead of what he had in the Marines. Figure that, the Marines are tightwads when it comes to funding .

 

[skidkid]

tight wads maybe but there was one point prior to the kicking off of OEF when the pavehawks guys were power limited off the boat and were lusting after the 53Es third engine pretty hard.
And as 46Driver said we get our share of missions I alreadyt debunked the Liberia argument that was FAST not a MEU, all the MEUs and squadrons were in Iraq at the big show not some little side skirmish. 160th is designed to go handle the side skirmishes and the dirty little wars not the full on slug fests.

And yeah before my time but sometimes the brass who never got a chance to get theirs does things like that although it isnt good and they should know better at least they ae warriors at heart.

 

[phrogdriver]

From my experience, a lot of the SOF guys preferred Marines to AFSOC in Afghanistan. We had more of a "can do" attitude. I really don't think there are a lot of operators who remember Desert One. It was over 20 years ago.

The O'Grady mission was a cluster in some ways, but it was also early in the post-Cold War era, and a lot of senior brass wanted their piece of the action. The Marine Corps made it happen. We don't have specialized assets for CSAR, but a TRAP package was available and did the job.

TF 160 is outstanding, but they are also the top 5% of Army air. You have to look at the whole. I wouldn't trade Navy/Marine helo training for the contractors teaching Army air in a million years. The Navy may have an admin mindset in regards to helos (which is slowly changing) but the Marines do not.

To address Liberia, the Marine Corps has gone there 4 times. USAF lift may have played a role, but I can tell you the ACE picked up most of the load in these ops. Marine assault support has done more NEOs, embassy reinforcements, and other MOOTWs/Low Intensity Conflicts/etc than all the other air assets put together. While "Special Operations" means something different in the Corps than in other services, we do get the job done. We are the Gerber Multi-tool of the military. We're general purpose and there when you need us. To compare us to exotic specialized units is a poor comparison.

Hope that made sense. I've got to stop defending the Corps while intoxicated.

 

[Pridgen]

Quick question for you guys ... After TBS I will be on my way to flight school and was wondering if I was to go Helo, how would I go about trying to fly for HMX-1 and for the President? I know it would be tough as hell but I was just wondering if anybody out there knew. Is it a B-Billet? Thanks ...

From good ole' VMI! The Corps roots the loudest!

 

[DocT]

Hey Pridgen...is that you from Kilo 2?

 

[Pridgen]

Hell yea ... who is this?

 

[phrogdriver]

HMX-1 is competitive, but you don't have to be a water-walker to get there. You need 1500 flight hours, sometimes waiverable to 1250. You can get that many by either having a long first tour or by applying to HMX off another B-billet such as IP(somewhat hazardous to your career). You do have to be generally respected as a helo pilot, as the selection process relies heavily on the opinions of the pilots currently assigned. If an HMX pilot flew with you during your fleet tour and thought you sucked, you probably aren't getting in. The opposite is also true. You also have to be able to pass a "Yankee White" security clearance. That's not hard, but if you have bad debts, DUIs, or something like that things won't go well.

This is secondhand knowledge gained from personal contact and going to their recruiting presentation. Anyone with firsthand knowledge, please help.
...end threadjack

 

[A&P wallis]

Kiowapilots.com

To broadsword2004 and anyone else that has posted on this thread their is a web site like airworriers, it's Kiowapilots.com. This sit is mostly related to the OH58D Kiowa but there is a forum which you can post questions about Army aviation to the people that do it for a living. This site is a good source becuase most of the members are Army aviators or enlisted Army who have aviation related jobs.
Shannon

 

[airgreg]

...web site like airworriers...

That's awesome! Air Worriers. Not far off the mark.
By the way, does anyone know what shore billets will be available in 2010?