Army Nightstalkers/Marines helo question

[ChuckMK23]

The true measure is stack up personal awards (medals) awarded to helicopter aircrews - The medals are what it's all about - compare Army, AFSOC, USN and USMC - I bet Army (SOAR) and AFSOC have us beat unfortunetly.

It's a valid measure - and I'm not talking about personal glory here. I'm talking about recognition that results in FUNDING for equipment and operations - that later leads to joint commanders using these resources in sexier ways.

If the USN - and to some degree USMC took to going hafter the high media missions that get the publicity and notoriety - the reputations would build and sure enough we would have the ops and equipemnt funding to compete against AF and Army.

And don't forget boys (and girls) the name of the game as a professional Navy/Marine officer is to compete - to promote your service above the others and grab funding.

 

[phrogdriver]

I think that competing with the USAF in awarding medals is a futile endeavor. I think there's an airman who got a silver star for p**sing in Afghanistan and not getting any on his fingers. There's (no crap) an AF UAV "pilot" who got an Air Medal in Yugoslavia.

The Corps isn't in the SpecOps business. Our job is primarily to support Fleet Marine Forces. We should not support of snake eaters to the detriment of our primary msn, whether that gets us better funding or not. I would submit that the Corps is the premier conventional military force in the US, if not the world. We were the first non-spec ops on the ground in Afghanistan and ran rings around the Army in OIF I. I'll surrender some snoop and poop glory in order to play to our strengths. AFSOC and TF160 belong to their services in name only--they are SOCOM assets and play for his team. The USMC is too small to play that game.

 

[Flash]

There's (no crap) an AF UAV "pilot" who got an Air Medal in Yugoslavia.

The USAF put the stops on any more UAV awardees after that, the fighter jocks did not like it too much (rightfully so).

 

[ChuckMK23]

PhrogDriver you make a great point - and I agree with you. But the reality I hear from my classmates - who are all 0-5's and 0-6's is that competition between the services has never been greater. ANd the Army is clamoring for resources and clearly marketing the message that the USN/USMC aren't doing their "fair share" - see last month's issue of Proceedings re the Department of the Navy's outright defiance of not staffing joint staff positions in Iraq.

I do think if USN/USMC leadership got their people more medals for valor - that would help the perceptions.

 

[ChuckMK23]

On an unrelated note Phrog Driver - how are those "gold stripe" rebuilt T-58 GE-16 engines working out on the Phrogs? ARe you guys seeing any increase in real world lifting power?

 

[phrogdriver]

I couldn't tell you, my last phrog flight was my fly-off from the boat in '02. I've been flying different machines since then, but like to give appropriate honors in my online handle to my original platform out of respect.

I haven't heard anything negative about them. I imagine not having to practice ETS has guys, esp in maintenance, breathing easier.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Ahhhh the good old days - I still have the Single Engine EP forever drilled in my brain from flying that bucket of bolts!

"PMS Off, Max Beep, 70 Kts, Crossfeed Closed, Gauges Check, 15 Degree right yaw, Arm Emergency Throttle, Start and select APU..."

 

[Stearmann4]

160th SOAR

If you guys want to read another great piece of 160th history. Pick up Sean Naylor's "A Good Day Not to Die". I came out March 1st. It's a little scandalous in that the stars made some poor, politically motivated decisions (as in Somalia), but the stories at the pilot and operators' level are fantastic. The 160th lost a couple of MH-47E Chinooks at Robert's Ridge along with some fine men.

Mike
NSDQ

 

[Stearmann4]

I think that competing with the USAF in awarding medals is a futile endeavor. I think there's an airman who got a silver star for p**sing in Afghanistan and not getting any on his fingers. There's (no crap) an AF UAV "pilot" who got an Air Medal in Yugoslavia.

The Corps isn't in the SpecOps business. Our job is primarily to support Fleet Marine Forces. We should not support of snake eaters to the detriment of our primary msn, whether that gets us better funding or not. I would submit that the Corps is the premier conventional military force in the US, if not the world. We were the first non-spec ops on the ground in Afghanistan and ran rings around the Army in OIF I. I'll surrender some snoop and poop glory in order to play to our strengths. AFSOC and TF160 belong to their services in name only--they are SOCOM assets and play for his team. The USMC is too small to play that game.

However,

I'd had some great Cobra gun escort into some rotten LZs over there, so we have the utmost respect for the USMC skids who came to play when they high powered Army couldn't hack it.

 

[Stearmann4]

reply

The guys that went into Liberia were FAST (Fleet anti-terrorism teams) basically on loan to theState department who do missions like that, they do not have an ACE available there was nothing in that insert that any ACE couldnt do. AS far as making comercial helicopter pilots I dont think that was the case when I went through and if it is now things are F#cked up. Dot the HTs do tactics NO but I dont want them to wait until the RAg fleet squadrons for that. Yes the 160th fly a lot more NVGs and get looser training rules but they only bring out 1-2 pods of rockets and some gun Ill take a Cobra or a Huey any day over them for the missions we find ourselves in.
I realize right now there is this super mystique about special operations forces but they do have their limitations.

What you failed to mention is yes, the AH-6's may only sling one or 2 rocket pods, but when that's the case, the other 2 or 3 stations are filled up with GAU-10 .50 gatlin guns or M-134 7.62 miniguns. That's alot of forward firing power. Also being a pretty small signature aircraft, they're pretty good at getting down low in the streets for convoy coverage, etc.

last thought; with few exceptions, I'm convinvced that there are two things and only two things that separate special operations aviation (160th) from USMC skids. 1. a top to bottom theme of "mission success above all else", and funding pure and simple. More money for technology and flight hours means better trained aviators. I have no doubt that if the Corps had similiar funding, they'd be able to perform the exact same missions. The typical statement is that we're "resourced for success."

Also, one thing alot of people overlook that's perculiar to Army aviation; Warrant Officers and Commisioned guys in the 160th STAY there with few exceptions. There's alot to be said for having the same pilots in a unit 10-15 years. Lessons learned don't get lost with the next PCS.

 

[ChuckMK23]

guys in the 160th STAY there with few exceptions. There's alot to be said for having the same pilots in a unit 10-15 years. Lessons learned don't get lost with the next PCS.

There is a lot to be said for approaching flying and combat skills as a "trade" and getting a high degree of specialization as your career grows.

This is exactly what I disliked about the Navy leadership system - in that your skills as an officer were valued much more than as a pilot. I think all it leads to is a filtering out of people as they progress in their careers and then you have O-5's who are decent people managers but mediocre pilots.

Specialization as a pilot first works - and the Senior Petty Officers and Chiefs are the deck level leaders anyway. Officers serve very little purpose in leading technicians and mechanics IMHO.

As an Officer and Aviator I always felt (against the prevailing wisdom) that I could exponentially contribute as a highly refined pilot who knew my aircraft inside and out and who could complete missions with a degree of safety and confidenvce that mayne others wouldn't attempt. This got me in hot water a few times but in the end it worked for me - I let my Chiefs do their jobs, I stayed out of the work spaces and focused on being the best I could andd grabbing every flight I could.